[2015 Six Nations] Ireland vs England (Round 3)

[Jbobo]

AWJ and POC are not in the same class as Rettalick. leaders? yes, players? no.
Warburton is a good player, but he doesn't consistently enough put in the world class performances to warrant the ***le (obviously a better '7' than Robshaw though).

I disagree, i think they are in the same class. Certainly a few years ago O'Connell was a top three SR and now i believe AW Jones is. I probably wouldn't replace him with anyone in the world. Would you say that Retallick is in a class of his own? And in that case, do you believe that this will be the case for the forseeable future?

Warburton has proved that his consistency is brilliant, up there with the best. If you believe he is not world class, but is 'obviously better than Robshaw', do you not regard Robshaw very highly? What amounts to world class in your view?
I think Robshaw has the potential to be a world class 6. But i don't think he has the skills required to be up there with the most effective 7's.

 

[goodNumber10]

I disagree, i think they are in the same class. Certainly a few years ago O'Connell was a top three SR and now i believe AW Jones is. I probably wouldn't replace him with anyone in the world.

Warburton has proved that his consistency is brilliant, up there with the best. If you believe he is not world class, but is 'obviously better than Robshaw', do you not regard Robshaw very highly? What amounts to world class in your view?
I think Robshaw has the potential to be a world class 6. But i don't think he has the skills required to be up there with the most effective 7's.

AWJ is certainly world class.

 

[UlsterRugby2012]

not at all, you're whole post was basically one big gloating Troll (fair enough ireland won).

If you want to read it that way, that is entirely your problem. You seem to just have a bitter taste in your mouth. I'm not one to gloat, I'm one of the first criticize Ireland usually. I actually thought we would lose both matches vs Aus and SA before each game during the AI's and that we would lose yesterday.

 

[yaboyjj]

I disagree, i think they are in the same class. Certainly a few years ago O'Connell was a top three SR and now i believe AW Jones is. I probably wouldn't replace him with anyone in the world. Would you say that Retallick is in a class of his own? And in that case, do you believe that this will be the case for the forseeable future?

Warburton has proved that his consistency is brilliant, up there with the best. If you believe he is not world class, but is 'obviously better than Robshaw', do you not regard Robshaw very highly? What amounts to world class in your view?
I think Robshaw has the potential to be a world class 6. But i don't think he has the skills required to be up there with the most effective 7's.

No, as I inferred earlier, Robshaw is a poor no.7.
I think world class is as much putting in consistent 'world class' performances as possessing the talent- I don't feel Warburton consistently does this. Notionally you could say that to be World class is to be top 3 in your position in the world.
Yeah I think AWJ and POC are world class.

 

[Jbobo]

No, as I inferred earlier, Robshaw is a poor no.7.
I think world class is as much putting in consistent 'world class' performances as possessing the talent- I don't feel Warburton consistently does this. Notionally you could say that to be World class is to be top 3 in your position in the world.

Fair enough. But yes, i would definitely stand by the notion that Warburton is a top three player in his position. Then again, there are some outstanding 7's in the world game. It would not make sense to me to hypotetically say that Warburton is the 3rd best openside in the world but then as 4th O'Brien is not world class.

Warburton is one of the most complete back rowers i have seen in a long time, no real weaknesses to be seen and is a good leader. We will agree to disagree but i think he has and will continue to prove that he can compete with anyone.

 

[yaboyjj]

Fair enough. But yes, i would definitely stand by the notion that Warburton is a top three player in his position. Then again, there are some outstanding 7's in the world game. It would not make sense to me to hypotetically say that Warburton is the 3rd best openside in the world but then as 4th O'Brien is not world class.

Warburton is one of the most complete back rowers i have seen in a long time, no real weaknesses to be seen and is a good leader. We will agree to disagree but i think he has and will continue to prove that he can compete with anyone.

Yeah, maybe I am underating Warbs- he was very good for the Lions. I always get the feeling that a big ball-carrying no.6 would work wonders for Wales and would make that a very fearsome back-row. Ever thought of putting Dan Baker there? (he always looked the goods for Ospreys).

 

[Jbobo]

Yeah, maybe I am underating Warbs- he was very good for the Lions. I always get the feeling that a big ball-carrying no.6 would work wonders for Wales and would make that a very fearsome back-row. Ever thought of putting Dan Baker there? (he always looked the goods for Ospreys).

I think you're right. Quite a few people have been advocating a change at 6 for that reason and maybe the best we could muster in that regard would be to shift Warbs to 6 and bring Tipuric into openside. We seem to have a lot of good 7's available who are waiting for their chance in the regional game and are developing nicely, but our depth at 6 is a bit concerning. Likewise Baker looked really good last season but Gatland really does seem to have a hang up on trying out new in-form players and sometimes the opportunity is missed when an injury inevitably happens, or players lose their good streak of form - Eli Walker being an obvious example. Faletau would be really hard to replace at the moment, but then there could be an argument to shift his over to 6 and bring Baker in at 8. It would be a much more balanced back row for me. I'm not actually sure whether Baker has had much time at 6, but it would definitely worth a consideration.

Do you feel the same kind of frustration with England? Maybe in different positions, but do you feel that Farrell was given too many chances, thus stifling some development ahead of the world cup? How do you feel about Cipriani? I've got to say that he looked mighty impressive when he came on against a tiring and beaten Italy, but he just seems to have something about him which is worrying for other teams.

 

[ncurd]

Okay on my views on Robshaw. It depends on your definition of world-class, on the wearing another players shirt in he's not but that definition is more about the best player in the world in that position. Well that's McCaw by an absolutely huge margin. World class is more about competing at an international level consistently and being able to compete with the world's best without being made to look a mug. I'd happily argue Robshaw fits that definition. He's decisive but he's only had one terrible game in an England shirt (Wales 2 years ago) and regular y is one of the most impressive England players in my book.

I know some people consider world class differently which makes it a very subjective topic.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Talking to some English friends and reading posts, you guys, in my opinion, seem to overestimate your players a bit, which ultimately leaves you feeling a bit underwhelmed after each match. Every time a new-ish player comes onto the scene he's hyped up far too much too quickly. Are your expectations too high? I'm not having a go, but it just seems like you talk about having multiple world class players in every position. Centres especially, I don't think there's any I'd have over Henshaw right now yet I've been told he would be 4th choice for England. Is Burrell really as good as people make out? Nowell? Maybe the reason you've chopped and changed centres so much is because they're all pretty average, not all world class. Obviously not everyone has this opinion.

Best tight five in the world? I'm not so sure. From yesterdays teams (not performance), if I could choose from either pack it would probably be:
1: McGrath or Healy tbh
2: Best
3: Cole
4: O'Connell
5: Attwood
6: POM
7: O'Brien
8: Vunipola

My opinion, but doesn't doesn't seem like the most dominant pack in world rugby. Even then, Toner is a tough call with his lineout work. Granted, Corbs is out, but even then many would have Healy over him.
I really like this English team compared to ones past, I think they'll make the semi's at least this year. But sometimes I think you should be more critical of players rather than blaming the coaching. (Although I agree, this team would be a lot better with somebody like Schmidt.)

And no, this isn't an 'arrogant English' post - it's just how I feel the English team is portrayed in the media and by others etc.

P.s to some posters suggesting Ireland don't have another gear or can't play with ball in hand, please go watch what Schmidt did with Leinster the past few seasons. & Then watch some of the games I listed earlier from Ireland last year that shows we can play more expansive. I've no doubt we can play wider with the talent in our back line. Doesn't mean we always will, but we certainly imo have the potential to.

This doesn't come across well because you come across as very defensive - 'to some posters suggesting Ireland don't have another gear'
If you go back, you will find myself and Peat for example saying Ireland still need to go up another gear and develop areas of your game- nothing whatsoever saying you haven't got another gear to go up, or that you can't improve those areas. We've said exactly the same as Keith Wood said.

Also a bit of a straw man going on with regards to the 'world class' thing. Do you really see English fans bandying that term around with regards to our players? I don't. You'd be hard put to find anyone describing many of our players as world class at this point. Using the fact of your win as a platform to back up your assertion also feels a but 'thin'. Noone has been describing all, or indeed any of our centres as world class.

 

[yaboyjj]

I think you're right. Quite a few people have been advocating a change at 6 for that reason and maybe the best we could muster in that regard would be to shift Warbs to 6 and bring Tipuric into openside. We seem to have a lot of good 7's available who are waiting for their chance in the regional game and are developing nicely, but our depth at 6 is a bit concerning. Likewise Baker looked really good last season but Gatland really does seem to have a hang up on trying out new in-form players and sometimes the opportunity is missed when an injury inevitably happens, or players lose their good streak of form - Eli Walker being an obvious example. Faletau would be really hard to replace at the moment, but then there could be an argument to shift his over to 6 and bring Baker in at 8. It would be a much more balanced back row for me. I'm not actually sure whether Baker has had much time at 6, but it would definitely worth a consideration.

Do you feel the same kind of frustration with England? Maybe in different positions, but do you feel that Farrell was given too many chances, thus stifling some development ahead of the world cup? How do you feel about Cipriani? I've got to say that he looked mighty impressive when he came on against a tiring and beaten Italy, but he just seems to have something about him which is worrying for other teams.

Yeah, in some ways I can understand Lancaster not chopping and changing on a whim- since it would just be like the situation in France. So sticking with some players through average form is OK- the issue is recognising when a player is just not up to International standard and blindly sticking by them (a la Goode, Burrell) or putting players in positions of 'status' where they are pretty much undroppable such as Robshaw.

 

[Jbobo]

Yeah, in some ways I can understand Lancaster not chopping and changing on a whim- since it would just be like the situation in France. So sticking with some players through average form is OK- the issue is recognising when a player is just not up to International standard and blindly sticking by them (a la Goode, Burrell) and we now have a situation where Robshaw is essentially undroppable.

Do England have any 7's who you would consider better than Robshaw who are playing in England? The selection of Goode has always baffled me.

 

[UlsterRugby2012]

This doesn't come across well because you come across as very defensive - 'to some posters suggesting Ireland don't have another gear'
I you go back, you will find myself and Peat for example saying Ireland still need to go up another gear and develop areas a game- nothing whatsoever saying you haven't got another gear to go up. WE've said exactly the same as Keith Wood said.

Also a bit of a straw man going on with regards to the 'world class' thing. Do you really say English fans bandying that term around with regards to our players? You'd be hart put to find anyone describing many of our players as world class at this point. Using the fact of your win as a platform to back up your assertion also feels a but 'thin'. Noone has been describing all, or indeed any of our centres as world class.

You're right I shouldn't have put it that way, and I agreed with a lot of what Peat said. Well, regards to the world class thing it didn't take much reading of Matt's blogs to get that sense, coupled with the opinions of people I've talked to in real life. Again I think I actually said not everyone has these opinions.

I also didn't once use the win yesterday to back up any of my points. I put in brackets I wasn't referring to yesterdays performance just the teams. It was others after who mentioned the performance.

 

[munstermuffin]

AWJ and POC are not in the same class as Rettalick. leaders? yes, players? no.
Warburton is a good player, but he doesn't consistently enough put in the world class performances to warrant the ***le (obviously a better '7' than Robshaw though).
I don't think Ireland have a better collective group of players up front than England, but Ireland are more than the sum of their parts due to smarter selection (complementing players) and tactics.
Lancaster really needs to step back and see the bigger picture atm, most of his selection 'habits', misplaced loyalities and the combinations he puts together are just dull.

I'd strongly argue that the first line is wrong. POC is nearly 36. AWJ is probably near that and both are definitely up there and I'd say Rettalick at his peak isn't as good as what the 2 lads were at their peak. And even now maybe Retralick is slightly better but again it's marginal. They show every game that they are valuable and very effective.

 

[profitius]

How is POM world class? Hes good but he's got along way to go...

Because he dominates the breakdown, is good in the lineout, can carry the ball and is a more talented footballer than most forwards. What 6 has been better in the last 18 months?

 

[Jbobo]

I'd strongly argue that the first line is wrong. POC is nearly 36. AWJ is probably near that and both are definitely up there and I'd say Rettalick at his peak isn't as good as what the 2 lads were at their peak. And even now maybe Retralick is slightly better but again it's marginal. They show every game that they are valuable and very effective.

Agree with all that. However, AWJ is only 29. Seems to be getting better and better. If he can keep it up as long as POC has, then like him, he'll retire an all time Welsh great.

 

[j'nuh]

England's world class players:
Launchbury

England's "slightly shy of world class" players:
Morgan (strong case to be in with Launchbury though)
Wilson
Lawes
Attwood (although he's doing his best to disprove this, this Six Nations)
Tuilagi
Robshaw
Joseph (potentially)

England's "in theory world class, but needs to bring back the form" players:
Cole
Corbisiero
Brown

Agree with all that. However, AWJ is only 29. Seems to be getting better and better. If he can keep it up as long as POC has, then like him, he'll retire an all time Welsh great.

Maybe just me, but if he retired tomorrow I'd view him as a great.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Can't say fairer than that mate.

What I can definitely say is that in the Northern Hemisphere we should all have more robust estimations of are players. With England, more so than any other team perhaps, we hate on a player one week and lavish praise the next - although this is often a function of how strangely inconsistent our players can be. But yes, we describe a player as top class one week and a crapper the next. Its like a sand castle which comes tumbling down. Its somewhat true of Wales as well. I think this stems from the fact that its quite hard to know a players limits unless they clearly, week in week out, perform way over and above the level required. Most don't. So I'd say there's half a dozen England players in the current 23 who are still 'jury's out'.
I think one of Irelands current strengths is knowing to what degree you rate your players and having faith in them. This said, it'd be interesting to see what happens if you ever lose two in a row under Schmidt.

By the way, the criticism of Lancaster I'd say is more about selection; I think he's a good coach, although jury's also out to what extent he does actually coach as opposed to just being a 'team manager' - as discussed on other threads.

 

[munstermuffin]

Because he dominates the breakdown, is good in the lineout, can carry the ball and is a more talented footballer than most forwards. What 6 has been better in the last 18 months?

I'm like a kid at a candy store with this stat to add. @GN10 POM has been statistically the best flanker in World Rugby since September 2013 at turning ball over at international rugby by something like 6/7 turnovers. Now no this alone doesn't make him world class but fact it shows consistency and add to that he's probably 1 of better line out options we have and very rarely has a bad game. And well he's off his trolley is a bonus.
In my eyes Mike Ross is a class apart too. He is poor for Leinster but in games that really count be it for Leinster or Ireland he does turn up. And well I'll write it here now. Wait until 2/3 years at latest when we see a Henshaw/Ringrose combo in centre. It could embarrass the famous D'Arcy/BOD combo if it delivers on potential.

 

[munstermuffin]

Agree with all that. However, AWJ is only 29. Seems to be getting better and better. If he can keep it up as long as POC has, then like him, he'll retire an all time Welsh great.

Wow really though he was more. Have always loved watching him and nothing but respect. He's as good as Paulie and a true warrior. In my eyes he should be Lions captain next round. And he's already in running to be all time great.

 

[profitius]

Robshaw seems to divide opinion. Personally I think he is a good player and does a lot of the unseen donkey work. Every team need players like Robshaw.