[2015 Six Nations] Ireland vs England (Round 3)

[goodNumber10]

Lads regards *****ing and moaning there about SOB as a traditional 7 etc. what is that these days? Every team uses it differently?

Exactly.

No one is saying he isn't an effective 7, but that's more to do with systems.

He's a phenomenal player regardless of whatever he is.

 

[munstermuffin]

Exactly.

No one is saying he isn't an effective 7, but that's more to do with systems.

He's a phenomenal player regardless of whatever he is.

But my point is in 1 persons eyes SOB is a traditional 7. In another he's not. It all depends on how you've been told while learning the game. And nobody is really right or wrong it's more opinions.

 

[ncurd]

But Ireland's way is simply to go through process and build score. I think as you say they've never had to use that extra gear and well part of reason England played poor was Ireland didn't let them play. Like it's easy say a team didn't play well but we forget that Irelsnd stopped England playing well.

This is always the difficult thing when a team plays poorly are they playing badly or is the opposite are they being made to look bad.

The Welsh (sorry to bring this up again it's just an easy example) have exactly the same argument about the Wales V England game as I'm making here. "We played poorly and you only played well enough to beat us, if we bought our A game we'd have won."

I thought Ireland were brilliant at the breakdown and it didn't help England very much in that regard. However the lack of England support in some of those rucks and mauls that led to the turnovers means we weren't getting there fast enough or giving players who broke away enough support. It's probably a bit of both poor play coupled with Ireland being quick to get there and competing well led to England looking poor.

England need to focus on their work supporting players getting isolated and I don't think this one off event either it happened vs. Wales as well (look at Hartley's holding on penalties). So I think Ireland focus'd on a weakness they picked up on and did well at exploiting it. That's a sign of a pretty good team right there. I just think in the context of the game England had a few too many breaks when the game should of been done and dusted and a little more precision from England may have brought them back in the game. However that's not to say Ireland would of not found some other way of stopping England but it didn't feel like they had complete control over what England were doing, it rarely happens and I'm being a little harsh.

 

[LiRFCMatt]

This is always the difficult thing when a team plays poorly are they playing badly or is the opposite are they being made to look bad.

The Welsh (sorry to bring this up again it's just an easy example) have exactly the same argument about the Wales V England game as I'm making here. "We played poorly and you only played well enough to beat us, if we bought our A game we'd have won."

I thought Ireland were brilliant at the breakdown and it didn't help England very much in that regard. However the lack of England support in some of those rucks and mauls that led to the turnovers means we weren't getting there fast enough or giving players who broke away enough support. It's probably a bit of both poor play coupled with Ireland being quick to get there and competing well led to England looking poor.

England need to focus on their work supporting players getting isolated and I don't think this one off event either it happened vs. Wales as well (look at Hartley's holding on penalties). So I think Ireland focus'd on a weakness they picked up on and did well at exploiting it. That's a sign of a pretty good team right there. I just think in the context of the game England had a few too many breaks when the game should of been done and dusted and a little more precision from England may have brought them back in the game. However that's not to say Ireland would of not found some other way of stopping England but it didn't feel like they had complete control over what England were doing, it rarely happens and I'm being a little harsh.

I think they definitely didn't have full control over England, there were periods of English pressure where it looked like they would cross, but a poor lineout and lack of referall to the end made it not so. But the Irish were so much better with kick chases, supporting the runner and getting to the breakdown first, England really struggled in those areas.

 

[Amiga500]

IMO, we are becoming very swiftly over-rated.

We are still a very limited team that functions extremely well within our limitations. But, make no mistake, those limitations still very much exist.

 

[LiRFCMatt]

IMO, we are becoming very swiftly over-rated.

We are still a very limited team that functions extremely well within our limitations. But, make no mistake, those limitations still very much exist.

That is what I wanted to see yesterday, a team push those limitation, and I'm now frustrated because we didn't get to see what either team has in what was meant to be one of the key games of the year! Still... we do play one more time before the World Cup don't we? Hopefully England will buck themselves up and Ireland will be able explore more of their game going in to the WC.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I think Ireland are some of the best at strangling the life out of a team and preventing them from getting started. I think the real test for Ireland will be when they are the ones having to chase a score rather than the reverse. So far the Irish always get a bit ahead and just sit there making it difficult for the opposition to score.

 

[LiRFCMatt]

I think Ireland are some of the best at strangling the life out of a team and preventing them from getting started. I think the real test for Ireland will be when they are the ones having to chase a score rather than the reverse. So far the Irish always get a bit ahead and just sit there making it difficult for the opposition to score.

A match against the Kiwis is something I'm really excited for.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I'm looking to seeing how the play away from home against a top side. Didn't really look good against a weakened Argentina in the summer, but then it wasn't a full Ireland side put out either.

They've looked comfortable in all of their big games over the past year or so, at home, and against some top sides - MilStad game will be interesting, especially if Wales are on an upward curve after the Paris win.

 

[munstermuffin]

I'm looking to seeing how the play away from home against a top side. Didn't really look good against a weakened Argentina in the summer, but then it wasn't a full Ireland side put out either.

They've looked comfortable in all of their big games over the past year or so, at home, and against some top sides - MilStad game will be interesting.

It'll be exact same way and may not work but it won't change too much. Amiga is right we do have limitations but that is effectively the plan - use our strong areas and build a plan around them. This gameplan won't expand that's a fact. We don't even try it in training supposedly it's just keep working on strong areas to a point where any time we strike our plans they're done accurate and effective.

 

[UlsterRugby2012]

Talking to some English friends and reading posts, you guys, in my opinion, seem to overestimate your players a bit, which ultimately leaves you feeling a bit underwhelmed after each match. Every time a new-ish player comes onto the scene he's hyped up far too much too quickly. Are your expectations too high? I'm not having a go, but it just seems like you talk about having multiple world class players in every position. Centres especially, I don't think there's any I'd have over Henshaw right now yet I've been told he would be 4th choice for England. Is Burrell really as good as people make out? Nowell? Maybe the reason you've chopped and changed centres so much is because they're all pretty average, not all world class. Obviously not everyone has this opinion.

Best tight five in the world? I'm not so sure. From yesterdays teams (not performance), if I could choose from either pack it would probably be:
1: McGrath or Healy tbh
2: Best
3: Cole
4: O'Connell
5: Attwood
6: POM
7: O'Brien
8: Vunipola

My opinion, but doesn't doesn't seem like the most dominant pack in world rugby. Even then, Toner is a tough call with his lineout work. Granted, Corbs is out, but even then many would have Healy over him.
I really like this English team compared to ones past, I think they'll make the semi's at least this year. But sometimes I think you should be more critical of players rather than blaming the coaching. (Although I agree, this team would be a lot better with somebody like Schmidt.)

And no, this isn't an 'arrogant English' post - it's just how I feel the English team is portrayed in the media and by others etc.

P.s to some posters suggesting Ireland don't have another gear or can't play with ball in hand, please go watch what Schmidt did with Leinster the past few seasons. & Then watch some of the games I listed earlier from Ireland last year that shows we can play more expansive. I've no doubt we can play wider with the talent in our back line. Doesn't mean we always will, but we certainly imo have the potential to.

 

[LiRFCMatt]

Talking to some English friends and reading posts, you guys, in my opinion, seem to overestimate your players a bit, which ultimately leaves you feeling a bit underwhelmed after each match. Every time a new-ish player comes onto the scene he's hyped up far too much too quickly. Are your expectations too high? I'm not having a go, but it just seems like you talk about having multiple world class players in every position. Centres especially, I don't think there's any I'd have over Henshaw right now yet I've been told he would be 4th choice for England. Is Burrell really as good as people make out? Nowell? Maybe the reason you've chopped and changed centres so much is because they're all pretty average, not all world class. Obviously not everyone has this opinion.

Best tight five in the world? I'm not so sure. From yesterdays teams (not performance), if I could choose from either pack it would probably be:
1: McGrath or Healy tbh
2: Best
3: Cole
4: O'Connell
5: Attwood
6: POM
7: O'Brien
8: Vunipola

My opinion, but doesn't doesn't seem like the most dominant pack in world rugby. Even then, Toner is a tough call with his lineout work. Granted, Corbs is out, but even then many would have Healy over him.
I really like this English team compared to ones past, I think they'll make the semi's at least this year. But sometimes I think you should be more critical of players rather than blaming the coaching. (Although I agree, this team would be a lot better with somebody like Schmidt.)

And no, this isn't an 'arrogant English' post - it's just how I feel the English team is portrayed in the media and by others etc.

P.s to some posters suggesting Ireland don't have another gear or can't play with ball in hand, please go watch what Schmidt did with Leinster the past few seasons. & Then watch some of the games I listed earlier from Ireland last year that shows we can play more expansive. I've no doubt we can play wider with the talent in our back line. Doesn't mean we always will, but we certainly imo have the potential to.

My composite 8 from before the match, perhaps proving your point:

Front Row: Cian Healy, Dylan Hartley & Dan Cole






What beautiful men. Dan Cole has never looked better. But on to the rugby... a great front row, powerful scrummagers and Dylan Hartley gets the nod over Rory Best as he has impressed more over the course of this RBS 6 Nations. These formidable scrummagers can cause nightmares for any side, and with Marler's recent form he was unlucky not to make the cut but Healy is a sensational tight head and the battle between him and Cole will be very interesting to see.



Second Row: Dave Attwood & Paul O'Connell












As the two best second rows in the world are currently injured, that would be Launchbury and Lawes, we have plumped for these two, who are no slouches in their own right. POC is a legend of the game and has once again impressed in this tournament, but the most impressive second row so far has been Dave Attwood, who has been a machine once again in the line out and with his tackling. These two second rows could walk in to any side in the world, apart from a fully-fit England team.



Back Row: James Haskell, Chris Robshaw & Billy Vunipola







A controversial all-English back row. No room for O'Brien ahead of the machine Haskell. He has carried fantastically, and although O'Brien can clear out three men by himself, he hasn't impressed as much as the ever-present blue scrum cap that is Haskell. Robshaw is Robshaw, he has been stunning this 6 Nations, and has been one of the players of the tournament so far. Tackle after tackle have secured his place in the side. Vunipola is in after Heaslip's injury caused by Pape, and although he hasn't set the tournament alight, Vunipola has been solid so far and makes his way in to the side.

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Excuse the horrible formatting, copied and pasted from http://fourballsblog.blogspot.co.uk/2015/02/ireland-and-england-composite-side.html

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I have to say Best's ability in the loose really showed Hartley up yesterday.

 

[UlsterRugby2012]

I'm sorry but this is exactly what I'm talking about.
Marler close to Healy? Are you having a laugh? (Btw Healy is a loose head not a tight head)
Hartley has been average really, Best has been fantastic yet he gets the nod?
& then the second rows.
Lawes and Launchbury the two best second rows in world rugby? Come off it. Wyn-Jones? Retallick? Etzebeth? Even POC at this age? (Considering the leadership he brings too). Are you sure you arent overestimating? I'm not saying they aren't fantastic players but the two best?

Im not even going to comment on the back rows really. Haskell over Sean O'Brien is absolutely hilarious.

edit: typing on phone so apologies for any mistakes.

 

[Feicarsinn]

6 players from a pack that got man shamed yesterday. Fair.

 

[Amiga500]

As the two best second rows in the world are currently injured, that would be Launchbury and Lawes, we have plumped for these two, who are no slouches in their own right. POC is a legend of the game and has once again impressed in this tournament, but the most impressive second row so far has been Dave Attwood, who has been a machine once again in the line out and with his tackling. These two second rows could walk in to any side in the world, apart from a fully-fit England team.

Talking to some English friends and reading posts, you guys, in my opinion, seem to overestimate your players a bit, which ultimately leaves you feeling a bit underwhelmed after each match.

 

[ncurd]

Talking to some English friends and reading posts, you guys, in my opinion, seem to overestimate your players a bit, which ultimately leaves you feeling a bit underwhelmed after each match. Every time a new-ish player comes onto the scene he's hyped up far too much too quickly. Are your expectations too high? I'm not having a go, but it just seems like you talk about having multiple world class players in every position. Centres especially, I don't think there's any I'd have over Henshaw right now yet I've been told he would be 4th choice for England. Is Burrell really as good as people make out? Nowell? Maybe the reason you've chopped and changed centres so much is because they're all pretty average, not all world class. Obviously not everyone has this opinion.

Best tight five in the world? I'm not so sure. From yesterdays teams (not performance), if I could choose from either pack it would probably be:
1: McGrath or Healy tbh
2: Best
3: Cole
4: O'Connell
5: Attwood
6: POM
7: O'Brien
8: Vunipola

My opinion, but doesn't doesn't seem like the most dominant pack in world rugby. Even then, Toner is a tough call with his lineout work. Granted, Corbs is out, but even then many would have Healy over him.
I really like this English team compared to ones past, I think they'll make the semi's at least this year. But sometimes I think you should be more critical of players rather than blaming the coaching. (Although I agree, this team would be a lot better with somebody like Schmidt.)

And no, this isn't an 'arrogant English' post - it's just how I feel the English team is portrayed in the media and by others etc.

The media have a way of over hyping players and we're guilty of it when someone explodes of the scene like JJ has (I got really excited by him by his Bath performances). However not sure I talk about having world class players (center has been troublesome for absolutely ages) in every position. Were pretty blessed on the second row Attwood who's in your side from yesterday is probably our 4th choice. Yesterday Robshaw wasn't great but I'd happily say that was his worst game in England shirt I can remember in some time. Corbs is out and is world class. So positions I think we don't have world class players

2, 6, 8 (I'm not sure about Morgan or Vunipola), 9, 12.
In addition to that I'd happily say 10, 11, 13, 14 are potential world class players as opposed to actually being world class.
15 I'm going with Brown not Goode

So yeah we have the making of a pretty good side with positions to still sort out. Just that every year we seam to put on one or two utterly brilliant performances and most people start thinking "Have we finally cracked it? Are we actually going going to be a pretty good side again?" False dawns are becoming a speciality of ours.

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My composite 8 from before the match, perhaps proving your point:

Guys his very first sentence in that post...

 

[lucky number 7]

My composite 8 from before the match, perhaps proving your point:


Back Row: James Haskell, Chris Robshaw & Billy Vunipola







A controversial all-English back row. No room for O'Brien ahead of the machine Haskell. He has carried fantastically, and although O'Brien can clear out three men by himself, he hasn't impressed as much as the ever-present blue scrum cap that is Haskell. Robshaw is Robshaw, he has been stunning this 6 Nations, and has been one of the players of the tournament so far. Tackle after tackle have secured his place in the side. Vunipola is in after Heaslip's injury caused by Pape, and although he hasn't set the tournament alight, Vunipola has been solid so far and makes his way in to the side.

-

.

An English backrow after they were utterly dismantled at the breakdown and completely starved of possession

 

[LiRFCMatt]

I'm sorry but this is exactly what I'm talking about.
Marler close to Healy? Are you having a laugh? (Btw Healy is a loose head not a tight head)
Hartley has been average really, Best has been fantastic yet he gets the nod?
& then the second rows.
Lawes and Launchbury the two best second rows in world rugby? Come off it. Wyn-Jones? Retallick? Etzebeth? Even POC at this age? (Considering the leadership he brings too). Are you sure you arent overestimating? I'm not saying they aren't fantastic players but the two best?

Im not even going to comment on the back rows really. Haskell over Sean O'Brien is absolutely hilarious.

edit: typing on phone so apologies for any mistakes.

I said I was proving the point about English fans overestimating the players! This was my composite team before the weekend. Haskell's club form has been sensational, not as hilarious as you think if you have seen him play, one of the Premiership's outstanding players. I do think Lawes and Launchbury are the two best second rows in world rugby, again maybe enforcing the fact that they are overhyped by the English, but the lineout when they were there was sensational, as was the scrum, and they are formidable in the loose. I know Healy is a tight head, as is Marler.

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Seriously guys read the first sentence of the post! Haha

 

[big ginger 8]

Our backline play is clearly progressing for anyone who's watching. There was some moves that were done yesterday that wouldn't have been attempted against France. This was still only the third game our three quarter line have played together, as they get to know each other better we'll see more of the fancy stuff. Of course our game will still be based around set peice, kicking and rucking but it will and can easily enough get more expansive. Especially if it has to Schmidt isn't a coach who will do the same thing if it isn't working.

 

[UlsterRugby2012]

I said I was proving the point about English fans overestimating the players! This was my composite team before the weekend. Haskell's club form has been sensational, not as hilarious as you think if you have seen him play, one of the Premiership's outstanding players. I do think Lawes and Launchbury are the two best second rows in world rugby, again maybe enforcing the fact that they are overhyped by the English, but the lineout when they were there was sensational, as was the scrum, and they are formidable in the loose. I know Healy is a tight head, as is Marler.

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Seriously guys read the first sentence of the post! Haha

Missed the first part my mistake

edit: I'm guessing that's just a mistake but both Healy and Marler are loose heads.