[2015 Six Nations] Ireland vs England (Round 3)

[LiRFCMatt]

Missed the first part my mistake

edit: I'm guessing that's just a mistake but both Healy and Marler are loose heads.

Yeah, messed that bit up slightly haha

 

[UlsterRugby2012]

The media have a way of over hyping players and we're guilty of it when someone explodes of the scene like JJ has (I got really excited by him by his Bath performances). However not sure I talk about having world class players (center has been troublesome for absolutely ages) in every position. Were pretty blessed on the second row Attwood who's in your side from yesterday is probably our 4th choice. Yesterday Robshaw wasn't great but I'd happily say that was his worst game in England shirt I can remember in some time. Corbs is out and is world class. So positions I think we don't have world class players

2, 6, 8 (I'm not sure about Morgan or Vunipola), 9, 12.
In addition to that I'd happily say 10, 11, 13, 14 are potential world class players as opposed to actually being world class.
15 I'm going with Brown not Goode

So yeah we have the making of a pretty good side with positions to still sort out. Just that every year we seam to put on one or two utterly brilliant performances and most people start thinking "Have we finally cracked it? Are we actually going going to be a pretty good side again?" False dawns are becoming a speciality of ours.

Well, taking openside for example being world class. Chris Robshaw. By world class, I would define that as being he could challenge / overtake other players for the starting shirt in the top teams.
Ireland - O'Brien
Wales - Warburton
France - Dusautoir
South Africa - Louw?
New Zealand - McCaw
Australia - Pocock / Hooper

How many of those would Robshaw even get ahead of in your opinion?
Of course, I'm not including Armitage but if I could then he would 100% be world class.

 

[goodNumber10]

Talking to some English friends and reading posts, you guys, in my opinion, seem to overestimate your players a bit, which ultimately leaves you feeling a bit underwhelmed after each match. Every time a new-ish player comes onto the scene he's hyped up far too much too quickly. Are your expectations too high? I'm not having a go, but it just seems like you talk about having multiple world class players in every position. Centres especially, I don't think there's any I'd have over Henshaw right now yet I've been told he would be 4th choice for England. Is Burrell really as good as people make out? Nowell? Maybe the reason you've chopped and changed centres so much is because they're all pretty average, not all world class. Obviously not everyone has this opinion.

Best tight five in the world? I'm not so sure. From yesterdays teams (not performance), if I could choose from either pack it would probably be:
1: McGrath or Healy tbh
2: Best
3: Cole
4: O'Connell
5: Attwood
6: POM
7: O'Brien
8: Vunipola

My opinion, but doesn't doesn't seem like the most dominant pack in world rugby. Even then, Toner is a tough call with his lineout work. Granted, Corbs is out, but even then many would have Healy over him.
I really like this English team compared to ones past, I think they'll make the semi's at least this year. But sometimes I think you should be more critical of players rather than blaming the coaching. (Although I agree, this team would be a lot better with somebody like Schmidt.)

And no, this isn't an 'arrogant English' post - it's just how I feel the English team is portrayed in the media and by others etc.

P.s to some posters suggesting Ireland don't have another gear or can't play with ball in hand, please go watch what Schmidt did with Leinster the past few seasons. & Then watch some of the games I listed earlier from Ireland last year that shows we can play more expansive. I've no doubt we can play wider with the talent in our back line. Doesn't mean we always will, but we certainly imo have the potential to.

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Well, taking openside for example. Chris Robshaw. By world class, I would define that as being he could challenge for the starting shirt in the top teams.
Ireland - O'Brien
Wales - Warburton
France - Dusautoir
South Africa - Louw?
New Zealand - McCaw
Australia - Pocock / Hooper

How many of those would Robshaw even get ahead of in your opinion?

I don't think anyone in the history of international Rugby has said Chris Robshaw was world class have they?

He's the most divisive captain we've had in ages.

World Class England Players:
Brown
JJ
Tuilagi
Ford
Vunipola
Morgan
Attwood
Lawes
Launchbury
Corbisiero
Youngs
Vunipola2
Cole
Hartley

 

[UlsterRugby2012]

Well the person I was replying to was suggesting that.

 

[LiRFCMatt]

Well, taking openside for example being world class. Chris Robshaw. By world class, I would define that as being he could challenge for the starting shirt in the top teams.
Ireland - O'Brien
Wales - Warburton
France - Dusautoir
South Africa - Louw?
New Zealand - McCaw
Australia - Pocock / Hooper

How many of those would Robshaw even get ahead of in your opinion?
Of course, I'm not including Armitage but if I could then he would 100% be world class.

Dusautoir is playing 6, although has the role of a 7, so I suppose he is a fair inclusion.
I do think Robshaw at the moment is better than Warbs though

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I don't think anyone in the history of international Rugby has said Chris Robshaw was world class have they?

He's the most divisive captain we've had in ages.

World Class England Players:
Brown
JJ
Tuilagi
Ford
Vunipola
Morgan
Attwood
Lawes
Launchbury
Corbisiero
Youngs
Vunipola2
Cole
Hartley

They have recently, with his sensational tackling and work rate.

 

[goodNumber10]

Well the person I was replying to was suggesting that.

was he?

However not sure I talk about having world class players (center has been troublesome for absolutely ages) in every position.

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They have recently, with his sensational tackling and work rate.

Not really, he's always divided the rugby fans and press, everyone at some point has said he should be a 6.. he is basically Will Carling, a decent player, a good captain but world class on occasion only.

 

[UlsterRugby2012]

was he?

'So positions I think we don't have world class players

2, 6, 8 (I'm not sure about Morgan or Vunipola), 9, 12.'

Is that not suggesting you have world class players at 7?

 

[Jbobo]

I do think Robshaw at the moment is better than Warbs though

I don't agree with that. Warburton is truly world class for me, along with all the others mentioned by UlsterRugby2012. I feel Robshaw is not as effective as he could be. Very good player, but i'm not sure he's the best long term leader for England, and I would think that under another coaching set up he would be moved to 6 (or should be) and Armitage would be included at 7.

On the second row debate i'd say that although there are a lot of good Second rows in the Six nations at the moment including Lawes and Launchbury, but i think AWJ and POC are still the fore runners in the NH and would be in any team in the world. I believe these two care on a par with Retallick and Etzabeth, with these two being top. These 4 players are supermen for their nations and indispensable as players and leaders (or for me, future leaders). From a Wales point of view, i'd be more worried about losing AWJ than any other player, including Halfpenny, Roberts, Lee or Warburton. The man is everything for us

 

[TheSaffycen]

He could be a world class 6.
Ireland _POM
New Zealand_Kaino
Wales_Lydiate
France_Nyanga /Le Roux
South Africa _ Alberts
Australia_Fardy

Also @GN10 world class English players I think you well overrated some of our guys
Corbisiero when fit. Manu, Morgan has been class for the last year or two. And that's about it with Launchbury and Lawes.

 

[goodNumber10]

'So positions I think we don't have world class players

2, 6, 8 (I'm not sure about Morgan or Vunipola), 9, 12.'

Is that not suggesting you have world class players at 7?

not really, no. He says

However not sure I talk about having world class players (center has been troublesome for absolutely ages) in every position.

which indicates he's not sure.

I'm not really sure of your point in all of this, it's hard to argue the England team don't' have World Class players, the entire rugby press has flagged up certain players... and i'm not sure one bad day at the office with a depleted team changes that as much as you may want it to.

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He could be a world class 6.
Ireland _POM
New Zealand_Kaino
Wales_Lydiate
France_Nyanga /Le Roux
South Africa _ Alberts
Australia_Fardy

Also @GN10 world class English players I think you well overrated some of our guys
Corbisiero when fit. Manu, Morgan has been class for the last year or two. And that's about it with Launchbury and Lawes.

How is POM world class? Hes good but he's got along way to go...

 

[TheSaffycen]

It was just the comparison to other 6s as made for the 7s. I wouldn't say Fardy is world class either but those are the top countries.

 

[yaboyjj]

I don't agree with that. Warburton is truly world class for me, along with all the others mentioned by UlsterRugby2012. I feel Robshaw is not as effective as he could be. Very good player, but i'm not sure he's the best long term leader for England, because I would think that under another coaching set up he would be moved to 6 (or should be) and Armitage would be included at 7.

On the second row debate i'd say that although there are a lot of good Second rows in the Six nations at the moment, i think AWJ and POC are still the fore runners. I believe these two care on a par with Retallick and Etzabeth. These 4 players are supermen for their nations and indispensable as players and leaders (or for me, future leaders). From a Wales point of view, i'd be more worried about losing AWJ than any other player, including Halfpenny, Roberts, Lee or Warburton. The man is everything for us

AWJ and POC are not in the same class as Rettalick. leaders? yes, players? no.
Warburton is a good player, but he doesn't consistently enough put in the world class performances to warrant the ***le (obviously a better '7' than Robshaw though).
I don't think Ireland have a better collective group of players up front than England, but Ireland are more than the sum of their parts due to smarter selection (complementing players) and tactics.
Lancaster really needs to step back and see the bigger picture atm, most of his selection 'habits', misplaced loyalities and the combinations he puts together are just dull.

 

[UlsterRugby2012]

World Class England Players:
Brown
JJ (Great player so far but has he proven to be world class yet?)
Tuilagi
Ford (Potentially world class, is he really there yet?)
Vunipola
Morgan
Attwood (Haven't seen enough of him, seems good, but can you call him world class at 2 England caps?)
Lawes
Launchbury
Corbisiero
Youngs (Is this Ben or Tom? Because either really are not world class)
Vunipola2
Cole
Hartley (Maybe I just don't like him, but his attitude is **** and I find him pretty average really)

not really, no. He says



which indicates he's not sure.

I'm not really sure of your point in all of this, it's hard to argue the England team don't' have World Class players, the entire rugby press has flagged up certain players... and i'm not sure one bad day at the office with a depleted team changes that as much as you may want it to.

Well, I disagree. It's just a matter of interpretation. He's saying not sure about world class in *every* position, and then lists them.
If you aren't sure of the point then read my first post again. & I'm not saying that they don't have world class players. I also don't want that to change as you suggest. You're just exaggerating my arguement. It sounds like you're getting very petty and I'm not going to converse with people like that.


For anyone seeing this as an attack on England, wise up.

 

[Peat]

Talking to some English friends and reading posts, you guys, in my opinion, seem to overestimate your players a bit, which ultimately leaves you feeling a bit underwhelmed after each match. Every time a new-ish player comes onto the scene he's hyped up far too much too quickly. Are your expectations too high?

I think you're entirely right there but...

I'm not having a go, but it just seems like you talk about having multiple world class players in every position. Centres especially, I don't think there's any I'd have over Henshaw right now yet I've been told he would be 4th choice for England. Is Burrell really as good as people make out? Nowell? Maybe the reason you've chopped and changed centres so much is because they're all pretty average, not all world class. Obviously not everyone has this opinion.

Think you've been misreading some posts to be fair. Plenty of people don't rate Burrell and there's been a great wailing and gnashing of teeth over our options at centre.

Best tight five in the world? I'm not so sure. From yesterdays teams (not performance), if I could choose from either pack it would probably be:
1: McGrath or Healy tbh
2: Best
3: Cole
4: O'Connell
5: Attwood

Thing is, yesterday's teams missed out on Corbisiero (which you noted), Wilson, Launchbury, Lawes and Parling. There's a pretty strong case for most of them in a composite pack of everyone both teams could pick if fit, I think every English fan would definitely put Launchbury in, Corbs vs Healy is an interesting one.

Best tight five in the world? With everyone fit, I think England are up there tbh. When you make it "Best tight five plus replacements in the world", we go up a notch, because we do probably have the best second choice props in the world. But we've had to soak tremendous injuries in this area.

I'm all for preaching the mantra we have real personnel problems, and that people are too quick to concentrate on our coaching, but there are areas of real strength in the team.

P.s to some posters suggesting Ireland don't have another gear or can't play with ball in hand, please go watch what Schmidt did with Leinster the past few seasons. & Then watch some of the games I listed earlier from Ireland last year that shows we can play more expansive. I've no doubt we can play wider with the talent in our back line. Doesn't mean we always will, but we certainly imo have the potential to.

I watched what Schmidt did with Leinster closer than any other Englishman on this forum. I was there in the stadium when Leinster ripped us to shreds in the HEC final, and spent the next three hours soaking up the gloating of a Leinster fan who looked like a ginger Robbie Coltrane. And I watch Ireland about as closely as any non-Irishman will.

And I am very skeptical about where this extra gear ball in hand is coming from barring maybe finally keeping Healy and SOB fit as the same time. This Ireland team are not Leinster and the Six Nations is not the Heineken Cup. The accuracy levels needed are higher and Schmidt has less time needed to instill them. The physicality levels needed are higher and Ireland have less players who shine there. More importantly, Schmidt seems content not to push the issue. Maybe it will change. But there is a definite question to be asked there and I'm bemused to the extent Irish fans seem to insist there is none.

 

[goodNumber10]

It sounds like you're getting very petty and I'm not going to converse with people like that.

Yep, it's certainly not petty to post "you all think you're great but really you suck" the day after a loss...

For anyone seeing this as an attack on England, wise up.

It clearly was.

 

[UlsterRugby2012]

I think you're entirely right there but...



Think you've been misreading some posts to be fair. Plenty of people don't rate Burrell and there's been a great wailing and gnashing of teeth over our options at centre.

The talk about the centres mainly came from people I've spoken to in real life recently, but he was also massively hyped last year. I haven't read every page on this forum I missed a lot of it!



Thing is, yesterday's teams missed out on Corbisiero (which you noted), Wilson, Launchbury, Lawes and Parling. There's a pretty strong case for most of them in a composite pack of everyone both teams could pick if fit, I think every English fan would definitely put Launchbury in, Corbs vs Healy is an interesting one.

Best tight five in the world? With everyone fit, I think England are up there tbh. When you make it "Best tight five plus replacements in the world", we go up a notch, because we do probably have the best second choice props in the world. But we've had to soak tremendous injuries in this area.

I'm all for preaching the mantra we have real personnel problems, and that people are too quick to concentrate on our coaching, but there are areas of real strength in the team.

I wouldn't disagree with most of that either. Maybe Wilson and potentially Parling depending who you are comparing him with. I said first England have a great team, I just feel people are too quick to jump to the word world class. There's a huge difference between a composite ENG / IRE team and a composite world team.



I watched what Schmidt did with Leinster closer than any other Englishman on this forum. I was there in the stadium when Leinster ripped us to shreds in the HEC final, and spent the next three hours soaking up the gloating of a Leinster fan who looked like a ginger Robbie Coltrane. And I watch Ireland about as closely as any non-Irishman will.

And I am very skeptical about where this extra gear ball in hand is coming from barring maybe finally keeping Healy and SOB fit as the same time. This Ireland team are not Leinster and the Six Nations is not the Heineken Cup. The accuracy levels needed are higher and Schmidt has less time needed to instill them. The physicality levels needed are higher and Ireland have less players who shine there. More importantly, Schmidt seems content not to push the issue. Maybe it will change. But there is a definite question to be asked there and I'm bemused to the extent Irish fans seem to insist there is none.

There is definitely questions. But I feel we've shown a bit more than what we're given credit for in some of the games since he has started. Yes, maybe you're right about the time toinstill it into the team. But players wise? I do think we have players capable of it. We both know how good Bowe is and the threat Payne poses on his day. Zebo has that spark and Kearney is a class act. Throw in missing players, like Olding, Fitzgerald and Earls - and there's a lot of potential for something to click in that backline. (Referring to their style of play not 'how good they are' before somebody else jumps on that)

Replies in bold

 

[goodNumber10]

I watched what Schmidt did with Leinster closer than any other Englishman on this forum. I was there in the stadium when Leinster ripped us to shreds in the HEC final, and spent the next three hours soaking up the gloating of a Leinster fan who looked like a ginger Robbie Coltrane. And I watch Ireland about as closely as any non-Irishman will.

And I am very skeptical about where this extra gear ball in hand is coming from barring maybe finally keeping Healy and SOB fit as the same time. This Ireland team are not Leinster and the Six Nations is not the Heineken Cup. The accuracy levels needed are higher and Schmidt has less time needed to instill them. The physicality levels needed are higher and Ireland have less players who shine there. More importantly, Schmidt seems content not to push the issue. Maybe it will change. But there is a definite question to be asked there and I'm bemused to the extent Irish fans seem to insist there is none.

The difference is that Leinster side had a world class inform Darcy and BOD in the midfield to play that amazing passing game - Darcy was an absolute Lynch pin in that leinster side. Ireland don't have that, they don't have aball player like Darcy, they don't have that intelligence at the moment: Henshaw and Payne are not world class (Henshaw maybe and soon) but he won't be a Darcy at 12.

 

[UlsterRugby2012]

Yep, it's certainly not petty to post "you all think you're great but really you suck" the day after a loss...




It clearly was.

Do you know what a straw man is? Because you've literally just used the most idiotic logical fallacy. Grow up.

 

[chippieolamus]

1) Corbs
2) Hartley/Youngs/Webber (no idea tbh)
3) Cole
4) Lawes
5) Lbury
with Marler, another hooker, Wilson and Parling coming off the bench. That front 5, if fit and on form stakes a good claim for best in the world.

 

[goodNumber10]

Do you know what a straw man is? Because you've literally just used the most idiotic logical fallacy. Grow up.

not at all, you're whole post was basically one big gloating Troll (fair enough ireland won).