[2015 Six Nations] Ireland vs England (Round 3)

[TRF_Olyy]

#MASS

 

[Patchey]

'Hi Stuart, please release your team early. Why? Because TRF has gone a bit stir crazy and is haunting the Internet with more Matt Banahan than anyone needs. They need something to talk about. Thanks mate, knew you'd understand'

 

[ncurd]

What we going to talk about when he does we 99% know the team and his one decision to drop Jonny May has already been covered in tedium.

---Updated---

Oh oh oh Hartley said he's already paid Lancaster back for not dropping him so don't freak out when he gets red 1 minute in this weekend.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/31631803

 

[Patchey]

What we going to talk about when he does we 99% know the team and his one decision to drop Jonny May has already been covered in tedium.

I don't know. Anything but HMS Banahamhands? Hell, can't we debate the back row and Steffon 'I fall on people' Armitage for the 1,000th time?

 

[LiRFCMatt]

Opening myself up to criticism, but Hartley is one of the best hookers in the world and the talk about his discipline is such a shame as it detracts from people realising how brilliant he is. Any team would be lucky to have him, and we need to support him.

Obviously if he does get sent off against Ireland then it will be a massive shame, highly unlikely in my opinion, but the hype over his ill discipline often comes from other countries fearful of how much better he is than their own hooker.

 

[ncurd]

Well considering the other choice is Tom 'Can't Hook, Can't Throw' Youngs. Hartley is a necessary evil how often has he lost a match through I'll discipline?

 

[Feicarsinn]

Lol, nah, it comes from the fact that he keeps getting sent off.

 

[munstermuffin]

Opening myself up to criticism, but Hartley is one of the best hookers in the world and the talk about his discipline is such a shame as it detracts from people realising how brilliant he is. Any team would be lucky to have him, and we need to support him.

Obviously if he does get sent off against Ireland then it will be a massive shame, highly unlikely in my opinion, but the hype over his ill discipline often comes from other countries fearful of how much better he is than their own hooker.

Can I ask what department he'd be top in. He's proven with his disciplinary record his disciple is an issue. The Lions scenario is the perfect example. And Best I think is better scrummager and defensive player along with better leadership and discipline.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Can I ask what department he'd be top in

"Jack of all trades, master of none".

Normally you get a hooker who is great in 2/3 of scrum/lineout/loose (i.e. Youngs and Best being awful in the lineout but great elsewhere) where as Hartley is "good" in all 3. He's not the best in the world in any aspect, but he's not bad at any.
His discipline at international is also massively better than at club level, where he's a bloody liability. I don't like him but I've no qualms with him being England's first choice.

 

[munstermuffin]

"Jack of all trades, master of none".

Normally you get a hooker who is great in 2/3 of scrum/lineout/loose (i.e. Youngs and Best being awful in the lineout but great elsewhere) where as Hartley is "good" in all 3. He's not the best in the world in any aspect, but he's not bad at any.
His discipline at international is also massively better than at club level, where he's a bloody liability. I don't like him but I've no qualms with him being England's first choice.

Oh I agree he's a top player but not a world class guy. But there isn't many top hookers in the world.

 

[j'nuh]

Out of interest, I counted the number of players that Lancaster has used in his reign. I excluded the Argentina tour that happened during the Lions. The number came out at 61 or 63 depending on whether you include the first New Zealand test when the Premiership final meant we had to put a second team out. Full list shows the positions where a lot of the chopping and changing occurred:

Props
Corbs, Cole, Stevens, Marler, PDJ, Vunipola, Mullan, Thomas, Brookes

Hookers
Hartley, Webber, Mears, Youngs, Paice, Gray*

Locks
Botha, Palmer, Parling, Lawes, Launchbury, Attwood, Kruis

BR
Croft, Robshaw, Johnson, Haskell, Wood

8s
Morgan, Waldrom, Dowson, Vunipola, Easter

9s
Youngs, Dickson, Care, Wigglesworth

Flyhalves
Hodgson, Farrell, Flood, Burns, Ford, Cipriani

Centres
Barritt, JTH, Tuilagi, Joseph, Twelvetrees, Tomkins, Burrell, Eastmond

Wingers
Strettle, Ashton, Sharples, Monye, Yarde, Nowell, May, Rokoduguni, Watson

Fullbacks
Goode, Brown, Foden, Pennell*

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Lancaster used Porn Dorn Jones?
I thought he got his few token caps way back in the day - before he left Gloucester/forgot how to play rugby.

 

[bw245]

Opening myself up to criticism, but Hartley is one of the best hookers in the world and the talk about his discipline is such a shame as it detracts from people realising how brilliant he is. Any team would be lucky to have him, and we need to support him.

Obviously if he does get sent off against Ireland then it will be a massive shame, highly unlikely in my opinion, but the hype over his ill discipline often comes from other countries fearful of how much better he is than their own hooker.

Some players are great, but lose their credibility due to their stupidity and discipline on the pitch. Hartley is one of those people.

Also, off topic, but what is this about one of the Welsh coaching staff saying Ireland play dangerous rugby, referencing the choke tackle. The Welsh don't know when to stop, do they?

 

[Maverick1987]

Out of interest, I counted the number of players that Lancaster has used in his reign. I excluded the Argentina tour that happened during the Lions. The number came out at 61 or 63 depending on whether you include the first New Zealand test when the Premiership final meant we had to put a second team out. Full list shows the positions where a lot of the chopping and changing occurred:

Props
Corbs, Cole, Stevens, Marler, PDJ, Vunipola, Mullan, Thomas, Brookes

Hookers
Hartley, Webber, Mears, Youngs, Paice, Gray*

Locks
Botha, Palmer, Parling, Lawes, Launchbury, Attwood, Kruis

BR
Croft, Robshaw, Johnson, Haskell, Wood

8s
Morgan, Waldrom, Dowson, Vunipola, Easter

9s
Youngs, Dickson, Care, Wigglesworth

Flyhalves
Hodgson, Farrell, Flood, Burns, Ford, Cipriani

Centres
Barritt, JTH, Tuilagi, Joseph, Twelvetrees, Tomkins, Burrell, Eastmond

Wingers
Strettle, Ashton, Sharples, Monye, Yarde, Nowell, May, Rokoduguni, Watson

Fullbacks
Goode, Brown, Foden, Pennell*

Wilson in props too

By the way I think Cipriani will come off the bench and win the game for us then Ollyy will explode and literally break the Internet and not in a Kim Kardashian way .....

 

[goodNumber10]

Can I ask what department he'd be top in. He's proven with his disciplinary record his disciple is an issue. The Lions scenario is the perfect example. And Best I think is better scrummager and defensive player along with better leadership and discipline.

It's true, hartley is an idiot, if he hadn't got himself banned Best would never have been leading the Lions against the ACT brumbies and we'd have actually won..... damn you dylan hartley, damn you to hell!!

 

[TommiG88]

I think jamie George has the potential to be a quality hooker. Good in all areas of the game, but he didn't even get into the Saxons which was surprising.

 

[munstermuffin]

Some players are great, but lose their credibility due to their stupidity and discipline on the pitch. Hartley is one of those people.

Also, off topic, but what is this about one of the Welsh coaching staff saying Ireland play dangerous rugby, referencing the choke tackle. The Welsh don't know when to stop, do they?

They didn't single Ireland. Just said the choke tackle can be very dangerous as it means players tackle high and chances of clashing heads is much higher.

 

[Peat]

Anyway, so I've just got around to this...

But the absence of Corbs and a lock on the bench is beginning to **** me off. If this blows up in our face, I will be all "Told you so".


Hartley is mediocrity writ large and it astonishes me that people rate him at all. The best you can say is no part of his game is going to visibly, notably lose the game for you - except for his discipline - but he is nothing more than a shirt filler. That Lancaster continually overlooks his indiscipline is probably my biggest criticism of him, and the biggest reason I refuse to place too much faith in what he says.

Would I have Youngs, Best, Hibbard, Webber - any of those hookers that go through patches of lineout inconsistency ahead of him? Yes, undoubtedly. Even one player underperforming in the loose starts weakening the whole structure - Hartley is that player. Regularly. Just currently with lineout problems as well.



p.s. May/Watson

No excuses for Watson failing to complete that tackle for the second try. None. If you can reach the guy, keep the guy down. It's keep the guy down or concede a try. And yes, I suspect his positioning could have been better.

As for what May's brought - if people didn't see it then/remember it, I doubt me saying what I saw is going to change anyone's mind. But I saw a player whose running put us in several very good positions during the 6N, some of them resulting in tries for other people, and whose defence was very good in the Autumn.

Ultimately, the back/axe argument is the same for most people - players who we think lack the talent to be a long term cog in an all conquering team we want axed at the first opportunity; people who we think do we want backed through bad form. The one big criticism I have of May's future is he seems to get nervous and make regular bad decisions; that could sink him. But talent wise, I think he's got it and I want him backed - and I want us to back more players in general.

 

[Every Time Ref]

I think Hartley's big saving grace is his throwing and the fact that he's a key cog in the best lineout unit in the world (statistically I think it is? I may be wrong). In fairness that shouldn't be overlooked, set piece is a massive part of our gameplan and there's no doubt it would weaken for changing the hooker (anyone seen Webber for Bath recently?!) - that's why I'm happy with him starting for England. But what perplexes me is how strongly that one thing seems to count in his favour. He's basically undroppable - I've just checked back and since the Premiership final incident he has started every England game he has been available for except one - the second test in New Zealand. Even without the discipline issues, no way are his very good throwing and his perfectly decent work everywhere else enough to make the shirt absolutely nailed-on as his.

And those quotes (I know, context etc. but hard to see how else to read them) basically consist of him saying "I get sent off. It's what I do. Deal with it". Unbelievable.

 

[msf]

Note Banahan's dexterous offload straight (almost) into the arms of the supporting player...I was actually musing over whether he would make the England team any worse recently, and then I saw him play inside centre for Bath in the LV. He scored a try, did some okay stuff, then made a decent break and passed to the supporting player at the right moment...unfortunately the pass bounced on the ground about 2 metres in front of the supporting player.