[2015 Six Nations] Ireland vs England (Round 3)

[Timbo]

Having heard Rowntree discuss Corbisiero a number of times I think it's fair to say that the England coaches are huge, huge fans of his. If he's not making the 23 currently it's purely down to fitness concerns. I'm sure they'd pick him if he was at or close to 100% conditioning.

 

[msf]

Haha, I never thought that show-and-gos would be part of a prop's armoury, but I guess ball-carrying and tacking didn't use to be either. I think Corbisiero is a better player if you want to play a simple game, like the Lions in 2013, but if you want to really challenge any defence then you need ball-carrying, handling props like Vunipola and Thomas.

 

[Patchey]

But scrummaging can just be left by the wayside...

 

[Feicarsinn]

Haha, I never thought that show-and-gos would be part of a prop's armoury, but I guess ball-carrying and tacking didn't use to be either. I think Corbisiero is a better player if you want to play a simple game, like the Lions in 2013, but if you want to really challenge any defence then you need ball-carrying, handling props like Vunipola and Thomas.

You want your players to do their bread and butter tasks right before the add more skills to their repertoire. Props that can scrummage, hookers that can throw and hook, scrum halves who can pass well. Everything else is secondary. You pick the players who are best at those fundamentals and if it's close you let the secondary abilities decide it.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

He's a big guy in the camp. Captained Leinster and Ireland and has bundles of caps for both. Good man to have around, you need your leaders.

Makes complete sense. And dare I say it, in a world where your average number 8 is getting bigger and bigger, Murphy and Heaslip start to look more similar 'footballer' type players? Very generally speaking of course.

 

[msf]

I agree, I meant if Vunipola and Thomas learn to scrummage (as they are showing signs of doing) then I would pick them to play an attacking game. I don't think the best scrimmaging prop wins every time anyway, I think Julian White was a more destructive scrummager than Phil Vickery, but England went for Vickery whenever he was available. Gethin Jenkins is another example - Paul James is clearly the superior scrummager, but Gatland picks Jenkins every time.

 

[goodNumber10]

it has to be about more than just scrummaging though. It's important, but 8-10 scrums in a game = a lot of time spent doing other duties. So yeah, you have to have a prop who can scrummage but you do also have to balance that with the other 50 minutes they are on the field.

Lineout work, loose work, link play and defence it has to be a total package and i guess the question is which strength can be balanced out with the weaker areas.

***edit: can only find 2011 figures but average scrums 15-20 time in game spent scrummaging 14 minutes.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

it has to be about more than just scrummaging though. It's important, but 8-10 scrums in a game = a lot of time spent doing other duties. So yeah, you have to have a prop who can scrummage but you do also have to balance that with the other 50 minutes they are on the field.

Lineout work, loose work, link play and defence it has to be a total package and i guess the question is which strength can be balanced out with the weaker areas.

***edit: can only find 2011 figures but average scrums 15-20 time in game spent scrummaging 14 minutes.

When you consider poor scrums can lead to penalties, with some of those leading to 3 points, I'd say that's very important. If there are say 10 scrums in a game and you give away 5 penalties in your own half because you can't scrum, that's a potential 15 points you have given away, the same as conceding 3 tries. I'd call that very significant. Part of the reason England were thrashed in Cardiff 2 years ago is because we were constantly being pinged at the scrum. Therefore I'd maintain that scrum ability is the first priority because the cost of being bad can be huge.

 

[ncurd]

@rangerancher is absolutely right whilst the scrum new rules force player to actually scrum now, a good scrummager is still worth his weight in penalties as the majority of scrum still end up in those.

How often do you see a team loose that's on top in the scrum and it be the fault of the prop's/hooker? Usually it's other players well underperforming that result in those losses. Personally I say pick your three best scrummagers first and worry about other skills secondary (except hookers throwing as line out is extremely important after those penalties). It's why I think Gatland is wrong picking Jenkins over James.

 

[Every Time Ref]

I'm on the "pick your props for scrummaging first" bandwagon too - along with picking your scrummies for passing first, your tens for runnign a game first etc. "Core" skills are so called for a reason.

The only thing I would say is that scrummaging is a skill that can only really be improved through experience, so picking a relatively poor (but young) scrummager like Mako could be justified in terms of bringing his scrummaging up to match the rest of his game and making a top-class all rounder, medium to long term.

 

[Peat]

it has to be about more than just scrummaging though. It's important, but 8-10 scrums in a game = a lot of time spent doing other duties. So yeah, you have to have a prop who can scrummage but you do also have to balance that with the other 50 minutes they are on the field.

Lineout work, loose work, link play and defence it has to be a total package and i guess the question is which strength can be balanced out with the weaker areas.

***edit: can only find 2011 figures but average scrums 15-20 time in game spent scrummaging 14 minutes.

This. I doubt any country puts out their top possible set of scrummaging props on a regular basis.

The game has evolved and the idea that every position should be judged on their specialist duties first and foremost is as outdated as having the winger throw the ball into the lineout. I'm not saying those specialist duties aren't important, they are, but so is everything else.

Moreover, it's not about individual players, it's about units. Not every front row has to be a great carrier but a side is at a disadvantage if none of them are. Weak looseheads are often carried by outstanding tighthead scrummagers (and occasionally vice versa) who might in turn cover for a lack of mobility in the loose. It's a lot easier to get away with a thrower like Tom Youngs if throwing at someone like Parling/Croft. A pair of top scrummaging props will allow you to play a pair of very mobile locks; a very powerful scrummaging lock might allow you to get away with an undercooked prop. And so on, and so on. All but the first, examples recently seen in an England shirt - and the first is very close to the tale of Geth and Adam. And I think I'm going to trust Gatland over ncurd on that one tbh.

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

Theoretically, can anyone imagine a team fielding a pack based entirely on set piece skill? It's difficult to know the actual effect of this, as I can't think of any player that is only useful in the set piece without any other useful traits. I imagine for England this would like like this, assuming availability:
Corbisiero (or Marler at the moment)
Hartley
Wilson
Attwood
Parling
Croft
Robshaw
Vunipola

I'll admit to being a little unsure about some of those picks, as I'm not too aware, but would it be too much of a disaster? I don't think so, as there aren't any one dimensional players there, but would it give an edge?
Also, hi, I've been loitering for a while now.

 

[bw245]

Starting to get a little nervous now. Really can't call it. Really like how both teams are respectful of one and other in the media, too.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Starting to get a little nervous now. Really can't call it. Really like how both teams are respectful of one and other in the media, too.

Yep Ireland are letting down the Celts, you need to be showing a bit less respect to us English, attempting to wind us up and doing silly mind games. Remember, we are the arrogant great oppressors and we DEMAND your contempt!

 

[The Jones Boy]

That contempt is just a con....

 

[munstermuffin]

From my source. Irish team to play.

Kearney
Bowe
Payne
Henshaw
Zebo
Sexton
Murray
Murphy
O'Brien
O'Mahony
O'Connell
Toner
Ross
Best
McGrath

Cronin
Healy
Moore
Henderson
O'Donnell
Reddan
Madigan
Fitzgearld

 

[bw245]

From my source. Irish team to play.

Kearney
Bowe
Payne
Henshaw
Zebo
Sexton
Murray
Murphy
O'Brien
O'Mahony
O'Connell
Toner
Ross
Best
McGrath

Cronin
Healy
Moore
Henderson
O'Donnell
Reddan
Madigan
Fitzgearld

such a good bench!!

 

[yaboyjj]

England team about to be announced.....

edit: Burrell keeps his place, Goode at Full back, Nowell on wing and Henry Thomas on bench
Manu Tuilagi apparently not far away from return also.

Full Team:

15. Alex Goode (Saracens, 16 caps)
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 6 caps)
13. Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 8 caps)
12. Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints, 9 caps)
11. Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 5 caps)
10. George Ford (Bath Rugby, 8 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 44 caps)

1. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 28 caps)
2. Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints, 63 caps)
3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 47 caps)
4. David Attwood (Bath Rugby, 18 caps)
5. George Kruis (Saracens, 6 caps)
6. James Haskell (Wasps, 55 caps)
7. Chris Robshaw (captain, Harlequins, 34 caps)
8. Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 14 caps)

Replacements

16. Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 19 caps)
17. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 17 caps)
18. Henry Thomas (Bath Rugby, 7 caps)
19. Nick Easter (Harlequins, 49 caps)
20. Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers, 39 caps)
21. Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 18 caps)
22. Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks, 10 caps)
23. Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby, 18 caps)

 

[goodNumber10]

England team about to be announced.....

edit: Burrell keeps his place,

was it ever at risk?

Full Team:

15. Alex Goode (Saracens, 16 caps)
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 6 caps)
13. Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 8 caps)
12. Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints, 9 caps)
11. Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 5 caps)
10. George Ford (Bath Rugby, 8 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 44 caps)

1. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 28 caps)
2. Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints, 63 caps)
3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 47 caps)
4. David Attwood (Bath Rugby, 18 caps)
5. George Kruis (Saracens, 6 caps)
6. James Haskell (Wasps, 55 caps)
7. Chris Robshaw (captain, Harlequins, 34 caps)
8. Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 14 caps)

Replacements

16. Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 19 caps)
17. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 17 caps)
18. Henry Thomas (Bath Rugby, 7 caps)
19. Nick Easter (Harlequins, 49 caps)
20. Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers, 39 caps)
21. Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 18 caps)
22. Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks, 10 caps)
23. Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby, 18 caps)

Pretty much as expected i suppose, 15 was the main discussion point and actually the few things Goode does have is good Positioning, a big long boot so and a brave air game so it's not exactly making it easier for the irish to play their kicking game.

Still think this game might be too son for England on it's current curve.

 

[yaboyjj]

was it ever at risk?




Pretty much as expected i suppose, 15 was the main discussion point and actually the few things Goode does have is good Positioning, a big long boot so and a brave air game so it's not exactly making it easier for the irish to play their kicking game.

Still think this game might be too son for England on it's current curve.

Some were tipping Twelvetrees to start, the bench is still a massive mistake with no lock cover.