[2015 RWC] Pool D: Ireland vs. Canada (19/09/2015)

[collace]

Couldn't disagree more. There's an argument that Zebo is, on current form, the best back outside the XV – wouldn't be advocating starting him at 12. Obviously you would know more than me about it but I'm struggling to think of the last time Fitz started a game at 12, he certainly hasn't done it very often.

I know he is a Joe favourite but he hasn't exactly been ripping up trees in the warm-ups and those were in his more favoured positions. Cave was brought into the squad to cover this exact scenario and must be gutted right now. If there's a danger that this is Ulster bias I would also have Madigan starting ahead of Fitz as he's more of a 12.

In saying all that he will probably have a decent game but I would be confident that Cave would as well considering (on paper) this is the easiest game we will have.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Couldn't disagree more. There's an argument that Zebo is, on current form, the best back outside the XV – wouldn't be advocating starting him at 12. Obviously you would know more than me about it but I'm struggling to think of the last time Fitz started a game at 12, he certainly hasn't done it very often.

I know he is a Joe favourite but he hasn't exactly been ripping up trees in the warm-ups and those were in his more favoured positions. Cave was brought into the squad to cover this exact scenario and must be gutted right now. If there's a danger that this is Ulster bias I would also have Madigan starting ahead of Fitz as he's more of a 12.

In saying all that he will probably have a decent game but I would be confident that Cave would as well considering (on paper) this is the easiest game we will have.

Zebo doesn't play in the centre so, despite me disagreeing that Zebo is the best back due to his exceptional talent of flattering to deceive, it's a moot point! Fitz played consistently at 12 during Schmidt's time at Leinster up to HEC level and spent most of his time at Leinster this year playing 13. This game is also, with as little disrespect to Canada as is possible saying this, our last warm up game and should be used for the most likely scenarios come the big games. Considering this and the fact Henshaw should be back for the Italy game it's best to go with the player who is the most likely replacement and physical and good enough to last ~75 minutes in the centre at international level which Ian Madigan is not!

 

[collace]

Surely, when we are talking about most likely scenarios, a centre going down (particularly a 12) is the reason for Cave being in the squad in the first place. I would argue that 12 is out of position for Fitzgerald and come a big game I would be much more comfortable with Cave in there who has played at 12 much more and has been extremely solid in that position.

Obviously Joe is a top coach and sees things I don't but there seems to be little point in having Cave in the squad if he doesn't get a look in in this scenario. it's a bit like having Jones (who can only play 15) on the bench throughout the SN when there was plenty of 15 cover already in the team - clearly he has his reasons but it doesn't seem to make a massive amount of sense.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Surely, when we are talking about most likely scenarios, a centre going down (particularly a 12) is the reason for Cave being in the squad in the first place. I would argue that 12 is out of position for Fitzgerald and come a big game I would be much more comfortable with Cave in there who has played at 12 much more and has been extremely solid in that position.

Obviously Joe is a top coach and sees things I don't but there seems to be little point in having Cave in the squad if he doesn't get a look in in this scenario. it's a bit like having Jones (who can only play 15) on the bench throughout the SN when there was plenty of 15 cover already in the team - clearly he has his reasons but it doesn't seem to make a massive amount of sense.

I think we're looking at this from different angles. If Henshaw is out of the world cup then, yes Cave is probably the best option depending on Payne's ability to play 12. This however is unlikely and Schmidt is using Henshaw's misfortune to his advantage by blooding the guy who's most likely to replace Henshaw in the case of an injury in a position that he can play but isn't too familiar with at this point of his career. Cave will fit in seamlessly if needed but at this moment in time the call leaves Schmidt with a worst case scenario of having to rethink his bench and a best case scenario of having another viable option in the squads weakest position.

 

[Peat]

I don't know why Schmidt's doing this but if he really thinks Fitzgerald is a better 12 than Cave, he might as well have left him at home and brought 3 scrum-halves.

Not saying this selection means Schmidt thinks that - just as a general point.

 

[TobesHodges]

I would have also given earls game time at 13 as he's much better than Payne, give Fizgerald game time at wing where he's best, and play cave or probably Henshaw at 12 to give this Irish backline a bit of unity from the off..

 

[Icemn]

when (NOT IF) Ireland qualifies for the final... can someone fake an injury (if none) and call up Brian O'Driscoll so that the best outside centre of all time can get a RWC medal?

any objections?

 

[Peat]

I would have also given earls game time at 13 as he's much better than Payne, give Fizgerald game time at wing where he's best, and play cave or probably Henshaw at 12 to give this Irish backline a bit of unity from the off..

Henshaw is injured.

 

[Amiga500]

Right decision, after Henshaw we don't have an international standard 12 and Fitz is the best back outside the 1st XV not to mention his experience in the centre

Ach yer arse. In the last few years Fitz sometimes looks like he's wearing boxing gloves. [Pity too, I'd such high hopes for him at the start of his professional career.]


Cave would have done a better job at 12 than Fitz, but maybe as you say, Joe is thinking a couple of games ahead with this one.

and he's likely to be number 23 in the big games so having him play in as many positions as possible before those is a good thing.

The only mistake Schmidt has shown in picking Fitz is having Cave in the squad at all, surely we'd have been better served with an extra loosehead or scrum half?!

I agree with this - if he is not going to play him in the exact situation for which he was bought along, surely that extra body could have been better used elsewhere? [Or even bring big McCloskey as 12 cover and a bolter - see how he goes in training.]

Overall I'm delighted with the team, somewhat Earls over Bowe is an excellent move because it'll either kick Tommy into form or we'll have an on form Keith Earls keeping him out

As I said, Bowe should never have been in the squad. Wouldn't be surprised if he picks up an "injury" in the near future allowing Trimble or someone else in.

Biggest loser has to be Devon Toner.

Indeed. If IH has a big game, its hard to see DT catching the eye (he's just not that kind of player, more solid than spectacular) enough against Romania or Italy to get the gig against France.

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I would have also given earls game time at 13 as he's much better than Payne

No indeed.

Earls is not as good as Payne in every facet of the 13 game apart from a step and taking on his man on the outside.

 

[munstermuffin]

Amiga. I'm not saying Earls is a great 13 but he's on par with Payne as 13. Payne isn't a great 13 either but there as he's consistent.
Cmac you say Zebo is consistent in not delivering but him and Dave Kearney have been miles ahead of the rest of our backs. Even in English defeat these were our 2 better players. Both deserving. I'm not a fan of Kearney and he doesn't score enough for a wing but he's earned his spot. Zebo is unlucky not to be ahead of Earls but well deserved spot.
The only spot that's iffy is 12. Fitzgerald is getting a chance but he has failed to show over past few months. He's the best option defensively at 12 I'd guess but it is a case he will either shine or his World Cup could be hit hard if he has a poor display.
I've said it already I think Henderson is main man and I think this may be our 1st choice pair at lock. But Henderson again will have to perform or Toner will be back in. I don't think Toner is out though. He will start against Romania. He's not flashy but works hard and is key at lineout time
1, 12 and maybe wings are possibly only changes that'd happen if everyone was fit and it was a big game

 

[Amiga500]

Amiga. I'm not saying Earls is a great 13 but he's on par with Payne as 13. Payne isn't a great 13 either but there as he's consistent.

Are you TobesHodges?

Earls is not as good a 13 as Payne. If you think I'm being biased, start a poll.


Cave is an infinitely better defensive option than Fitz. To be honest, that statement doesn't help with regards your view on Earls as a 13!

 

[munstermuffin]

Are you TobesHodges?

Earls is not as good a 13 as Payne. If you think I'm being biased, start a poll.


Cave is an infinitely better defensive option than Fitz. To be honest, that statement doesn't help with regards your view on Earls as a 13!

What has Payne done to so clearly move him apart as a 13?
I think he's been good at best same as Earls. He's better defensively whereas Earls edges it attacking from 13.

Defensively Cave missed a few in his last game. Fitzgerald hasn't missed much so not sure what you mean.

Never mentioned any bias I don't think Earls is a super 13 just Payne isn't either. 1 is a smashing winger while the others a smashing 15

 

[gavgladiator]

People pegging Hendo as a flanker because he likes to run with ball in hand and take guys on. He brings so much to the 2nd row in terms of athleticism, definitely looks like he's an heir apparent to PoC. Delighted to see him picked, and hopefully the competition will mean we get big performances out of Devin and Donncha when they are needed. This looks like about our strongest team given that Robbie is injured. I'm not a big Earls fan, but if Sexton throws the ball around the Canada game is ripe for KE to run in some tries - he definitely looks hungry. Important that Sexton and Murray come through this injury free, I'd be happy if Madigan or Jackson played 30 mins of rugby, this last ten minute business can disrupt the flow of a game especially when it's tight. Can't wait for the tournament to kick off

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Earls has been found out defensively every time he has played 13 for Ireland against a half decent team. He is not a centre. Period. He's not really a utility back either, he's a very talented winger. McFadden/Fitz/Madigan and arguably Payne are our real utility backs if you are defining it as guys who can play centre and somewhere in the back 3 (wing and fullback is not that different). Madigan is a 10/12, Payne is a natural 15 who Joe wants to play at 13 because he reads the game really well in tight channels and rarely makes mistakes - we have come to expect flair from our 13 because of BoD but Payne is doing a lot to ensure those around him look good, his work rate is excellent. Fitz and McFadden have been dancing across the Leinster back line for years. McFadden truly unlucky not to be in this squad, but it speaks to the talent we have. I think he's a better wing. Fitzgerald comes off his wing so much looking to defend rucks etc. it's clear he wants to be a centre. Has great hands and is an intelligent player. Can move to the wing if an injury pops up and Joe wants to give Cave some game time

 

[Jockstap]

What has Payne done to so clearly move him apart as a 13?
I think he's been good at best same as Earls. He's better defensively whereas Earls edges it attacking from 13.

Defensively Cave missed a few in his last game. Fitzgerald hasn't missed much so not sure what you mean.

Never mentioned any bias I don't think Earls is a super 13 just Payne isn't either. 1 is a smashing winger while the others a smashing 15

The problem is at international level defense is everything. A guy who is defensively solid but mediocre in attack is far more valuable than the opposite.

 

[big ginger 8]

Cave is an infinitely better defensive option than Fitz.

That statement is completely wrong. Fitzgerald is a fantastic defender, not just on the wing but in the centre. His defense kept Leinster competitive in a number of games last year. His performance in the second Wasps match is a case study on how to defend the 13 channel.

Note I'm not slighting Cave's defence he's just not 'infinitely better' than Fitzgerald.

 

[munstermuffin]

The problem is at international level defense is everything. A guy who is defensively solid but mediocre in attack is far more valuable than the opposite.

I don't disagree. I'm not here shouting for Earls in centre. He's best on the wing.

 

[munstermuffin]

That statement is completely wrong. Fitzgerald is a fantastic defender, not just on the wing but in the centre. His defense kept Leinster competitive in a number of games last year. His performance in the second Wasps match is a case study on how to defend the 13 channel.

Note I'm not slighting Cave's defence he's just not 'infinitely better' than Fitzgerald.

I'd agree with this. An interesting side is I remember a while back many were calling for Luke to be a 12 as he seems to have the attributes and build. It'll be interesting to see how he adapts and this may be a new lease of life in to him.

 

[MLB3BB2]

I think Schmidt has an eye to give everyone a shot at playing in the 1st two matches, even at their 2nd-choice positions. So I wouldn't be surprised to see Zebo come on for Fitz, but shift Earls to centre with Zebo on the wing. Madigan will likely see time at fly-half in this match and Jackson's omission may mean that he'll start against Romania, with Sexton coming off the bench to get enough playing time to be ready for Italy. it's the last two matches that will be the most critical, so while Ireland need to win the first two, there's room to juggle in preparation for Italy and France.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Canada are tough and gritty but they will be outclassed.

 

[bw245]

I think Schmidt has an eye to give everyone a shot at playing in the 1st two matches, even at their 2nd-choice positions. So I wouldn't be surprised to see Zebo come on for Fitz, but shift Earls to centre with Zebo on the wing. Madigan will likely see time at fly-half in this match and Jackson's omission may mean that he'll start against Romania, with Sexton coming off the bench to get enough playing time to be ready for Italy. it's the last two matches that will be the most critical, so while Ireland need to win the first two, there's room to juggle in preparation for Italy and France.

I can't see Kearney playing a full 80 mins (after his injury) so would imagine Zebo will likely be used as cover for FB. Just hope it's not a case of not having enough backs and having three number 3s on the pitch again and a back row in the wing...