[2015 RWC] Pool D: Ireland vs. Romania (27/09/2015)

[Senan]

How will France target him? In defense? While I can understand where criticism of his attacking is coming from at least, his defense is excellent and has held up against all the top teams he's played.

He was also nowhere near being a 'weakness' against Canada.

Absolutely, his defense along with Robbie were key to last seasons success.
Payne and Henshaw have been played as defending centers, not attacking, so people being critical of his attack should give him a chance,plus he has played majority of his club rugby at FB.
The remarks are harsh on him. Guaranteed if Matt Williams never went on a rant about him on live TV, people wouldn't be on the wagon as quick.

 

[munstermuffin]

Absolutely, his defense along with Robbie were key to last seasons success.
Payne and Henshaw have been played as defending centers, not attacking, so people being critical of his attack should give him a chance,plus he has played majority of his club rugby at FB.
The remarks are harsh on him. Guaranteed if Matt Williams never went on a rant about him on live TV, people wouldn't be on the wagon as quick.

I disagree with end as people have been questioning Payne as a centre from day 1 long before Matt Williams said anything. Most Ulster friends I know we're kinda saddened as they say they lost a top 15 and brilliant 13 because of IRFU. Not sure how it's justified when you say he's played most of club game at 15. He'd played 13 in club games and isn't half as effective as 15. He got in based on form as a 15. Payne is a top defender and superb player. Is he a glaring weakness at 13. No. But not above a good debate. We looked a lot better when Madigan and Cave moved out 1 with PJ coming in. That may be because it was when game opened up but did pose questioning. If Payne is retained in sure it'll be ok but he is like majority of other backs he has competition. I think Fitz was excellent against Canada and could do a good job with Henshaw. Also Henshaw hasn't played yet and that means you've to question his status and risk etc. People are being critical of their attack as it hasn't been good at all and is limited by their roles. Fair enough they are playing the system given to them but Payne was so good at 15 carving defenses up for Ulster that people crave it in green but he hasn't the time at 13 and people know what he's capable of. That's why he's a debatable guy.
Just to finish I don't think Payne is a weakness or should be dropped just its a debatable area.

 

[big ginger 8]

The whole comparing Payne's attacking ability at 15 and 13 thing needs to stop, so many people have done it and it serves no purpose. They're completely different positions. At fullback there is so much more space for players that they are more likely to make the individual break. This line of thinking is almost like when SO'B initially changed from 6 to 7 and people said he was playing badly because he wasn't making the big breaks anymore. It's a completely pointless comparison.

Payne may not be setting the world alight as an individual attacking talent but he is facilitating those outside him fantastically. He doesn't have the physical attributes to make many clean breaks in midfield in international rugby but he has the skill and intelligence to create the breaks for others.

Also @munstermuffin the reason we looked more dangerous when Jackson came on was quite possibly due to it coinciding with the yellow card...

 

[munstermuffin]

The whole comparing Payne's attacking ability at 15 and 13 thing needs to stop, so many people have done it and it serves no purpose. They're completely different positions. At fullback there is so much more space for players that they are more likely to make the individual break. This line of thinking is almost like when SO'B initially changed from 6 to 7 and people said he was playing badly because he wasn't making the big breaks anymore. It's a completely pointless comparison.

Payne may not be setting the world alight as an individual attacking talent but he is facilitating those outside him fantastically. He doesn't have the physical attributes to make many clean breaks in midfield in international rugby but he has the skill and intelligence to create the breaks for others.

Also @munstermuffin the reason we looked more dangerous when Jackson came on was quite possibly due to it coinciding with the yellow card...

As I said BG8 that may have been the reason amongst others. But it is still fair to debate it.
Also I agree with all your saying but just pointing out that's where a lot of critics are coming from. They see Payne and know what he's like attacking from 15 but it's harder from 13. I agree he is performing up to a certain level at 13 but does still have to cut out some errors which I've no doubt he will

 

[Peat]

I think you also looked more dangerous when Jackson came on because Jackson came on. Madigan wasn't making the right decisions for my money.

It's valid to compare Payne at 15 at club rugby and at 13 in international rugby to look at the different parts of his game and where each bit is.

It's also valid to point out that he's playing like a rich man's Brad Barritt and to wonder whether Ireland might be improved with a different player. It's completely pointless, as Schmidt is looking for solidity first and no one is as solid as Payne so he's going nowhere, but an interesting question nevertheless.

 

[dunney77]

Payne at 15 and Fitz at 13 for Italy would be great. Wouldn't risk the game and could see some serious attacking threat!

 

[munstermuffin]

I think you also looked more dangerous when Jackson came on because Jackson came on. Madigan wasn't making the right decisions for my money.

It's valid to compare Payne at 15 at club rugby and at 13 in international rugby to look at the different parts of his game and where each bit is.

It's also valid to point out that he's playing like a rich man's Brad Barritt and to wonder whether Ireland might be improved with a different player. It's completely pointless, as Schmidt is looking for solidity first and no one is as solid as Payne so he's going nowhere, but an interesting question nevertheless.

I think we will all agree Payne is a lot better at 13 than Big Brad Barritt. But you are correct as a centre Payne is limited but is exactly what Schmidt wants for his system.

 

[Jakedood]

For sure, Payne brings solidity and reliability. I normally associate making others look good as the preserve of an out half, but Payne does read the game well, and his passing is of a high quality, as well as the fact he doesn't screw up often in 2 on 1's, etc. I'm a massive fan of Cave & Fitzgerald but Payne isn't bad by any means and reliability isn't something to be underestimated at a world cup for sure. We'll see how the centre partnership fares with Henshaw, and also take a look at Payne's distribution to the Wing's/Full Back, he's very accurate with it.

In regards to Jackson, well in my mind he's a much better out half than Madigan, but Madigan is the better bench player as he covers 12 as well to an extent

 

[collace]

In light of the discussion about Payne it's interesting that Cave has commented:

http://www.the42.ie/darren-cave-jared-payne-fact-2357681-Sep2015/

While you don't expect him to slate Payne in front of the media, there seems to be a recurring theme that Payne does a lot of unseen work which, in essence, makes those around him look and play better.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

there seems to be a recurring theme that Payne does a lot of unseen work which, in essence, makes those around him look and play better.

He's the new Donncha O'Callaghan then!

Payne's not a bad player in fact he's a terrific fullback. He's being played out of position out of necessity. Ireland simply don't have enough options in midfield. I think he's really push Rob Kearney hard had he remained at 15. Post World Cup I wonder if he has a future in midfield or if Ireland will push a 12-13 partnership of Stuart McCloskey and Robbie Henshaw. Such a partnership could have a long term future.

 

[munstermuffin]

He's the new Donncha O'Callaghan then!

Payne's not a bad player in fact he's a terrific fullback. He's being played out of position out of necessity. Ireland simply don't have enough options in midfield. I think he's really push Rob Kearney hard had he remained at 15. Post World Cup I wonder if he has a future in midfield or if Ireland will push a 12-13 partnership of Stuart McCloskey and Robbie Henshaw. Such a partnership could have a long term future.

That's an interesting 1. 15 will be real depth as I think Zebo will be urged to become more a 15 too. Kearney will be interesting. He's only 29 but has had major problems with back so if he can stay healthy he will be there. Payne if he goes back 15 after RWC will be also a big plus.
I do think we have a lot of natural centres coming through in all the provinces that just need some exposure. Would Schmidt gamble a 6 Nations and try blood new guys again I wonder. I've wondered a while how will he treat the squad after. Will he try start a new 2 or 4 year cycle or just go season to season and let things go naturally.