[2015 RWC] Pool C: New Zealand vs. Georgia (02/10/2015)

[ZeroTwo]

On the "rape" thing - Can you guys grow up? It was used in a non-offensive context. You just choose to be offended, it wasn't directed at any women, or children or whatever unbelievable people are actually offended here.

"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so ****ing what."

- Stephen Fry

Used it before on here, but it's perfect.

Doesn't mean you're not a muppet for using it. Anyway it was a silly word to use. But hey, I'd just be a bit more thoughtful about others before using a word lightly like that.

Some would. Some wouldn't. It's the right of the individual to use it and the right of others to tell them they're being a muppet.

 

[Dirty Ape]

I was at the game last night.

Warmup observations:
Slade was the only player in the squad I didn't see on the field. Messam was in a suit, not running around. Barrett was running round like a kid - think he is very close to being back. BB was helping TJ warm up with from-hand kicking and he was very good while TJ was very inaccurate (meaning BB was having to scamper around and he did so happily with zero signs of fitness problems). Then TJ did some goal kicking - woeful. Hopefully that doesn't become an issue in this comp.

TKB did not look fully fit in his warmup. Seemed very tight and I figured his heavily strapped knee was the issue.

Otherwise the warmups looked great and the whole side looked like they were rearing to go


Immediate reaction to the match:
Disgusted. Felt like the worst All Black performance in a decade or more. The scrum was a disaster, the handling was probably the worst I have ever seen from an All Black side, the goal kicking poor, option taking very poor. I left after Carter kicked that penalty dead - that was the final straw so we decided to get out of there ahead of the crowds. I have tickets to the Quarter Final and after this performance I couldn't see us getting past any of the possible QF oppponents. Panic stations people.


Having slept on it and watched the match again this morning:
Scrum: Crockett and Faumuina had a bad night and I expect them to get read the riot act by Hansen and Cron with a massive workload ahead on the training pitch. When Woodcock and Franks came on things improved a lot but, as has been noted, this coincided with the Georgian prop coming off so I expect all of them to have a hell of a lot of work on the scrum this week.

Goal kicking: Carter missed 3 out of 4 from the touchline, and got the rest. Not great but not the concern I felt it was watching it happen live.

Handling: Horrible. Not good enough. But so much of this was because we were trying to play too much with a competent and motivated defence right in our faces. Just a nonsensical thing to do and it persisted throughout the match. It was extremely disrespectful to the Georgian's and we were rightly made to pay. We have to earn the right to fling the ball around and we rarely did the hard yards first. I think that opening try from Naholo made the lads think they could just have a fun ole night of throwing the ball around and scoring lots of tries. Not the mindset we needed.

Option taking: again with the mindset . We didn't respect the defence and we didn't do the hard work first. We wanted to get tries from first or second phase instead of just doing the basics, building pressure, sucking in defenders, creating space through phase play. How many times were we bundled into touch? Far too many times and is very much an indication of poor option taking.

A word on Naholo. He looks terrific with ball in hand, as that opening try showed. He may be fit but I think he is underdone in terms of combinations. On attack he was in the wrong place at the wrong time on more than one occasion. This can be fixed with work work work. Another week on the training pitch and another run against Tonga will do him the world of good.

So, the mindset was wrong and was, I think, the cause of most of our problems. But this is something I expect will be fixed very quickly. As awful as we were in this match I do think it will give us a real kick in the proverbial and should result in massive improvements. And we have another game to sort things out before the QF. I'm not happy but it's not the doom and goom I thought it was last night.

 

[McTallshort]

1. So what? Having other definitions does not remove its connotations.

2. People who have been raped often later diagnose with PTSD. When triggered, they can re-live the experience, have flashbacks etc. Clearly, discussions about rape need to happen. But bringing it up unnecessarily, triggering people unnecessarily, over the sake of what was said, is not cool.

3. It seems to me that the language chosen by shtove was to get this kind of a reaction. With so many options of words that could displace "rape" and keep the same sentiment, they had to pick "rape", presumably because they see it as funnier.

4. Dictionaries are a reference guide on the ways in which modern language can be used, not a moral guide on the use of language.

5. This forum blanks out swearing because of negative connotations. But a light remark about rape is okay? Fairly inconsistent IMO.

Oh FFS are you being serious?

 

[ABs2011]

Some of you need to learn a bit about the English language before you jump on your high horses and go all PC on us.The word "rape" has a number of meanings, some of which do not necessarily carry any sexual violation connotations, particularly when it refers to an object or objects that clearly do not fit that part of the defintion, i.e.[TEXTAREA]RAPE (noun) 3. an act of plunder, violent seizure, or abuse; despoliation; violation:the rape of the countryside. 4. Archaic. the act of seizing and carrying off by force. RAPE (verb) 6.to plunder (a place); despoil:e.g. "the logging operation raped a wide tract of forest without regard for the environmental impact of their harvesting practices." 7.to seize, take, or carry off by force. [/TEXTAREA]The context which shtove used the word definitelky fits Verb 6 or 7, and is therefore perfectly acceptable language

Seriously? I'm not sure if you are trying to be funny, superior or just didn't actually read this guys original posts? Regardless you should look at how the guy defined the word himself (not to mention the reference to women):

"That terrible loss of innocence when you think you're doing the right thing, and your opponent says, **** that!"

"And I apologise for the rape reference. I know you're a girl, so it must have made you uncomfortable. Hugz."

Does that sound like it comes under "6" or "7" to you? Give me a break. You know full f'ing well what the kid was implying! That's all I'm gonna say on this, but after reading your posts for some years I did expect a little more from you mate!

On a more relevant note, here's another video form the press conference:

http://file2.stuff.co.nz/893/12783893.mp4

I thought a couple interesting points were Hansen saying the ABs were purposefully putting themselves under pressure by artificially creating pressure situations to give themselves practice on dealing with that. He referred to the lack of in play kicking as an example of how they are doing that. It makes sense and think what he is saying is accurate. On the other hand, it doesn't excuse the extremely poor execution for much of the game in many facets of the game.

 

[Kiwi_]

It's a bit of relief. But I think tonight showed how important it is to have a try scoring, running #10 who can also kick goals. We're shakey at 10 at the moment, relying on a past it great, who to be fair was often injury prone. I think that's our biggest issue, the handling errors sounds like a lot of it was simulated, which I believe considering some of the ball we dropped.

- - - Updated - - -

Doesn't mean you're not a muppet for using it. Anyway it was a silly word to use. But hey, I'd just be a bit more thoughtful about others before using a word lightly like that.

Some would. Some wouldn't. It's the right of the individual to use it and the right of others to tell them they're being a muppet.

I've never used it, was referring to the Stephen Fry quote.

 

[ABs2011]

It's a bit of relief. But I think tonight showed how important it is to have a try scoring, running #10 who can also kick goals. We're shakey at 10 at the moment, relying on a past it great, who to be fair was often injury prone. I think that's our biggest issue, the handling errors sounds like a lot of it was simulated, which I believe considering some of the ball we dropped.

Are you talking about Foley?

 

[austingtir]

Seriously? I'm not sure if you are trying to be funny, superior or just didn't actually read this guys original posts? Regardless you should look at how the guy defined the word himself (not to mention the reference to women):"That terrible loss of innocence when you think you're doing the right thing, and your opponent says, **** that!""And I apologise for the rape reference. I know you're a girl, so it must have made you uncomfortable. Hugz."Does that sound like it comes under "6" or "7" to you? Give me a break. You know full f'ing well what the kid was implying! That's all I'm gonna say on this, but after reading your posts for some years I did expect a little more from you mate!

What a load of absolute ******!!!

 

[Kiwi_]

Are you talking about Foley?

Yeah, not him as a player, but more the importance of the running role at 10. I doubt he will play that good again. But we miss having that ability to score tries from 10 and the running game and creativity, Carter isn't providing that, at all and hasn't for a long time. Hopefully Barrett can offer this, but it feels like it's at the expense of our goal kicking.

 

[ABs2011]

Yeah, not him as a player, but more the importance of the running role at 10. I doubt he will play that good again. But we miss having that ability to score tries from 10 and the running game and creativity, Carter isn't providing that, at all and hasn't for a long time. Hopefully Barrett can offer this, but it feels like it's at the expense of our goal kicking.

Yup he was awesome, and absolutely agree that there is a massive difference to a teams performance when the 10 is active like that and hitting the line. Have you checked out Hansen's comments after the Georgia match though? IF you buy into what he is saying then I think its safe to assume the ABs are holding quite a bit back, and I believe that would include DCs running game.

People have different opinions on DC against OZ at Eden park, but one thing you can't deny is that when a big trophy was on the line he attacked the line more and as a result the ABs benefited on the scoreboard. My hope, and belief, is that this part of the ABs game is being held back. Time will tell I guess but as an ABs supporter I think that is one thing to consider, if not hold on to

 

[Kiwi_]

Yup he was awesome, and absolutely agree that there is a massive difference to a teams performance when the 10 is active like that and hitting the line. Have you checked out Hansen's comments after the Georgia match though? IF you buy into what he is saying then I think its safe to assume the ABs are holding quite a bit back, and I believe that would include DCs running game.

People have different opinions on DC against OZ at Eden park, but one thing you can't deny is that when a big trophy was on the line he attacked the line more and as a result the ABs benefited on the scoreboard. My hope, and belief, is that this part of the ABs game is being held back. Time will tell I guess but as an ABs supporter I think that is one thing to consider, if not hold on to

This has crept into my mind about Dans running game, you lose pace over the years, but you don't lose vision. So perhaps you're right. Just have to hold our breathe until the knock out games and wait and see what we produce. Maybe the 2 weeks off for Barrett will have him fully recovered from what ever ****le he has as well and his goal kicking can finally come right. I know he had some tough kicks vs Namibia, but it was more the way he was striking and timing the ball that concerned me, definitely looked like he was struggling with his leg extension.

 

[Mcfadden]

There are headlines now about Hansen saying they were holding back. ABs2011, you asked what I took from the press conference. Pretty much those headlines before they were even written. As Steve said, these are not the knock out games. So I dunno. I think that could be very stupid and I'm concerned about us leaving things late. Leaving our victories for the past 2 or 3 years late. Leaving team cohesion late. We don't have to show all our cards pre-KO matches. But ffs, can we actually catch the ball? Cause that ain't holding back - that's just being inaccurate. I hope they know what they're doing. I wouldn't write us off with too much doomsday talk though. Other teams have their problems too. Just because we've been messy doesn't mean France are magically invincible.

 

[Kiwi_]

There are headlines now about Hansen saying they were holding back. ABs2011, you asked what I took from the press conference. Pretty much those headlines before they were even written. As Steve said, these are not the knock out games. So I dunno. I think that could be very stupid and I'm concerned about us leaving things late. Leaving our victories for the past 2 or 3 years late. Leaving team cohesion late. We don't have to show all our cards pre-KO matches. But ffs, can we actually catch the ball? Cause that ain't holding back - that's just being inaccurate. I hope they know what they're doing. I wouldn't write us off with too much doomsday talk though. Other teams have their problems too. Just because we've been messy doesn't mean France are magically invincible.

I think the ball was deliberately knocked on for scrum practice and pressure practice. We're not that clumsy and inaccurate. 19 handling errors in perfect conditions? I doubt it eh.

 

[Bazzy]

Saying things like "we are holding back" are just the sort that will come back and bite you...

 

[Kiwi_]

Saying things like "we are holding back" are just the sort that will come back and bite you...

I think it was to settle the panic. A lot of us were losing our ***** over here and treating the game as a loss. Things make sense as well and Shag is an astute guy.

If we play like that against Tonga we know it's BS though.

 

[ABs2011]

There are headlines now about Hansen saying they were holding back. ABs2011, you asked what I took from the press conference. Pretty much those headlines before they were even written. As Steve said, these are not the knock out games. So I dunno. I think that could be very stupid and I'm concerned about us leaving things late. Leaving our victories for the past 2 or 3 years late. Leaving team cohesion late. We don't have to show all our cards pre-KO matches. But ffs, can we actually catch the ball? Cause that ain't holding back - that's just being inaccurate. I hope they know what they're doing. I wouldn't write us off with too much doomsday talk though. Other teams have their problems too. Just because we've been messy doesn't mean France are magically invincible.

I agree with your sentiment. Look, I think it's fine that they created pressure situations by not kicking the ball, and I think it si fine that they are working on specific parts of there game. What I dont get is that surely the blue print for winning a RWC was laid out in 2011? Why the huge shift in strategy? I think part of what he is saying is true and part is complete BS excuses. And I am definitely concerned they might be leaving a few things too late.

One thing I can say with certainty is if we win the RWC they will be called geniuses! But based on these comments and performances, if they lose, particularly if they get knocked out before the final, they are going to look completely stupid. I will reserve judgement until I have seen more, but I expect significant improvements vs Tonga!

 

[shtove]

From now on I'm using the term "monstered". Doesn't mean the same thing, because a good team can get raped but only a bad team gets monstered. For example: England got raped by Wales, but England got monstered by Australia.

And I sincerely apologise for my reply to the jazz-hands outrage - ugly humour, but still humour. Won't do it again.

 

[81st_Minute]

I'll use the word rape more often now

 

[nzlizard]

Aus got quite a few turnovers in that game, it got me thinking about the lack of turnover ball we get now, and Cane has led that stat over McCaw for a couple of seasons now I believe. Really hard to win a game with losing that much ball.

If we have to play Aus and they do that to us, we would have to lift our levels so much to hold them out, and even I still think they would cross the line.

Can anyone here actually say they could see Carter running at the line like Foley for 3 games in row?

 

[Kiwi_]

Aus got quite a few turnovers in that game, it got me thinking about the lack of turnover ball we get now, and Cane has led that stat over McCaw for a couple of seasons now I believe. Really hard to win a game with losing that much ball.

If we have to play Aus and they do that to us, we would have to lift our levels so much to hold them out, and even I still think they would cross the line.

Can anyone here actually say they could see Carter running at the line like Foley for 3 games in row?

Agreed and agree.

My concern is 6 as well. Kaino is not going to be cleaning out Hooper AND Pocock and Messam seems injured and very unlikely to ever start. Dan likely isn't going to be breaking the advantage line and our tackling % is far down. It's not encouraging, but we can only hope. I think we have too many game breakers in the outside backs and midfield to lose this tournament though and a far superior bench to what Australia offer, IF we end up playing them. They might dominate us for the first 60 minutes, so we just have to make sure we're in touch in the final 20 and let our outside backs, fitness and Vito/Cane and McCaw's leadership and experience to see us home. This seems to be what we've been doing for a while now, so it's pretty predictable, Cheika seems like the sort of guy to have something up his sleeve for this situation, but that's in the distant uncertain future, so we'll worry about it if either of us even get there.

 

[austingtir]

Aus got quite a few turnovers in that game, it got me thinking about the lack of turnover ball we get now, and Cane has led that stat over McCaw for a couple of seasons now I believe. Really hard to win a game with losing that much ball.

If we have to play Aus and they do that to us, we would have to lift our levels so much to hold them out, and even I still think they would cross the line.

Can anyone here actually say they could see Carter running at the line like Foley for 3 games in row?

Im more surprised by the scrum dominance they had over England than the back row. I mean Englands crap and has been for years I said on the EOYT last year they were rubbish. We have way more back row options than any other team in the world and can play certain players to suit certain teams if Australia had matched us at Eden Park id be rather concerned now but they really struggled even when Pocock came on.

When they called the scrum and totally destroyed that England scrum that was a HUGE statement. Thats one of the few things that impressed me about that match.

The key to beating this Australian team is attacking their lineout and keeping field position dominance.

I would of thought Australia would be hussled out of the tournament by a team with a solid scrum but thats clearly not going to happen and I suspect Ireland and co if they get through will be rather concerned about what they saw in that England match.