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[2015 RWC] Pool A: England vs. Wales (26/09/2015)

Right, if the real England show up, there is no contest!

If the English of Fiji match turn up it will be a tight game and who knows who will win!

If Wales win, with their missing players, then England do not deserve to remain in the competition and the coaches should resign in November en masse never to be heard of again except as the third choice of a Biarritz team in Federale 1 next year!!!!
 
Are we really wholeheartedly proposing that a guy with 2 sub appearances total, who's not even in the 23, should be parachuted in at this point? I know people are sceptical of Lancaster's judgement, I am, but but if people are right to say that, he's really off in his thinking. Super-off.

Right now, we have a guy who we know is excellent in the loose and who we can trust with the lineout in this current pack. The worry is our scrum and what happens if we change our pack. Do we actually want to change our pack though? If fully fit and able I'd start Launchbury, but I'm not sure he is. In any case, the lineout should stil continue to function with him at 4. That leaves the back row. Do we want Haskell and Vunipola? Haskell for Wood would make protecting our own ball even dodgier. The argument for Hask is... what? Wood's actually playing well at the moment, he's carrying well which is Hask's point of difference. When did teams last fear England at the breakdown, I'd say this team has intermittently really been dangerous on the counter-ruck, Wood's been pivotal at that. Vunipola for Morgan, I could buy that and it would make a bit of difference - but I don't think Youngs would fall apart. Wood has been the main guy taking our line-out ball, not Parling, Wood is the guy who it rests on. So, no, it's not team familiarity, it's having a genuine target in the back row.

For me, the big problem in the scrum is Marler getting seperated from Youngs and a fairly loose looking back row. Maybe that is Youngs' fault, maybe not. I don't know enough to be sure. Maybe a really strong scrummaging lock would change things... maybe just changing Marler would change things. Maybe just scrumming as 8 men, practising really hard and hitting fully intensity, would change things. Certainly Youngs' non-striking doesn't help things. But we are getting an awful lot if we put up with that.

And we don't know what we're getting with George really. We've got a fair idea, but we can't be sure. Getting caught out by the pace and intensity of the game is common in the new guys. We don't know how he's doing in training.


I don't really favour changing things up at this stage. I think the problem is more that the team is not at full-throttle than anything else, and changes will only kill that. If they identify one thing here or there they can change to really alter the dynamic, cool, or if they reckon they've got a form player, sweet, but I don't think there's an intrinsically better unit in the squad. I don't really see anyone doing better given the limitations of the coaching and everything they're dealing with at the moment.
 
Someone upthread mentioned Tipuric in the centres - is that a genuine possibility?

.

Nope. He is LIKE a centre at times in attack, but he is not a centre. It was suggested to gatland at a press conference and he looked at the guy who suggested it as if to say "what the hell are you smoking". Don't get me wrong id love to see tips play more but his only shot is at 7 possibly in place of warburton if he loses the captaincy to AWJ. Centre wise it
Looks like we will use north as cover then Tyler morgan should worst come to worst
 
You're right Wood stays in, as he is currently and generally better than Haskell, and I don't even want to entertain Clark. Just a bit disappointed that we need his lineout expertise to make up for our hooker's lack-of-them. Even then, the service isn't great. And Fiji aren't exactly the sternest of tests. We went well against Ireland, but our implosion against France is too recent not to worry about what Wales might do to us.

Scrum-wise, we are a mess. We've been on the losing end of the last 4 games now. Our scrum has just worked over by Campese bloody Ma'afu. The guy dropped by Cardiff for not being good enough. Maybe he's had a massive turnaround at Nottingham... still, our front row should not have struggled as much as it did. Vunipola-for-Marler is a pretty easy call for me. I make Vunipola's scrummaging and loose game better than Marler's at this point. I am half-tempted by Wilson too, but the coaches seem to have gone off him. Or maybe we just need a week on getting the set piece basics right again?

Our breakdown is still terrible, and now we get to play the two teams with an identity for attacking the breakdown. It's a big advantage to concede.

I'm just worried that we seem to have cracks forming where there were previously none. I'm starting to lose an understanding of where our strengths lie? (Other than defence and fitness, which is pretty standard for a high-ranking tier one team.)

re: Tipuric, the WC is not a place to find out if he is a centre! Although I'm fairly convinced that given time, he could be a classy 13.
 
That's a thought, Wilson hasn't been making an appearance at all yet I don't remember his scrummaging ever falling off... With the focus on fitness I think that is what they are not liking but surely we can start with Wilson and introduce Cole because our scrum is just not working. Really not sure why Wilson has so quickly been overtaken by Cole again, he never had any really bad games that I can remember and was pretty solid whilst Cole isn't performing. Are we going to try to work him to injury again!?
 
My first post... How pleasing to find a group who can discuss rugby without childish insults...

I have to agree that I think the team that wins this sat will be the team that shows up. I refuse to judge any teams on the first outings, as both Eng and Wal are capable of a whole lot more.

To be honest, I'm terrified!

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Agree regards Wilson, find it strange that Cole won his place back so quickly. Don't remember him being that impressive for Tigers on his return.

I do think SL has his favourites at times...

Feel for Wales with the injuries, but still a very dangerous team.
 
Someone was asking for Youngs' line out % in the Prem, they highlighted it before the France away game and it was the highest of any England player (Hartley included). High 80's, on phone so cba googling. So agree that, along with more help from Parling/Wood as well as starting the games has helped in that area of his game and he's too important an asset in the loose to change.

Re, the scrum, whatever is at fault there (as it could be combination of many things) i don't see why we can't just adapt and get the ball out via Morgan asap till the bench is on as i've no confidence in the scrum at all till Mako is on(alongside the go forward Mako gives).
 
Something is not translating well at England in the pack IMO.

Why has the pack lost it's dominance in the scrum, Why can't the lineout a work?

England have had plenty of time together that this shouldn't be an issue. Esp in the scrums we were in form after the 6N's.

Did England have to go to Denver really would it have been better to stayed closer to home? Who knows.
 
My first post... How pleasing to find a group who can discuss rugby without childish insults...

I have to agree that I think the team that wins this sat will be the team that shows up. I refuse to judge any teams on the first outings, as both Eng and Wal are capable of a whole lot more.

To be honest, I'm terrified!

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Agree regards Wilson, find it strange that Cole won his place back so quickly. Don't remember him being that impressive for Tigers on his return.

I do think SL has his favourites at times...

Feel for Wales with the injuries, but still a very dangerous team.

Your mother was a hamster...


Welcome to the forum :D
 
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Agree regards Wilson, find it strange that Cole won his place back so quickly. Don't remember him being that impressive for Tigers on his return.

Ermm speaking as a person who watched all the Leicester games he was.

Hardly like Bath scrum was impressive with Wilson in.
 
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If Wales win, with their missing players, then England do not deserve to remain in the competition and the coaches should resign in November en masse never to be heard of again except as the third choice of a Biarritz team in Federale 1 next year!!!!

It will be tight but I can see the Poms squeaking it and going from strength to strength.
If the Taffs get first points on the board it's going to be a long day.
A battle of the ***ans.
 
Just love England v Wales. First international I ever saw in the 1980 Grand Slam year. Running battle from start to finish. Red card for Ringer after 13 mins, late pen from Hare to win 9-8. 3 pens to 2 tries. One schoolboy imagination totally fired! Just wish we had a front row of the calibre of Cotton, Wheeler & Blakeway this weekend.

I'm one of the lucky ones who has a ticket for Saturday. Can't wait, the place will be rocking. Just a shame the Welsh have a lot more songs than us and sing them better.

It ought to be an English win, but I'm worried. It's not a normal game, just this once there's a good case for a horses for courses, pack the team with muscle, selection.
 
Im pretty sure George will bench Saturday, I do think Webber only played because if Geroge or yiungs got injured he would be straight in after no game time for a month and a half, which is fair enough.. I can see Lawes and Launchbury starting.. Just because..
 
Isn't there a long list of Welsh injured?

Yes. Not meaning to sound like I wished injury on anyone but it is a nice change for the Welsh to be the ones with injuries facing us rather than the past where we have been the ones with injuries.
 
Ermm speaking as a person who watched all the Leicester games he was.

Hardly like Bath scrum was impressive with Wilson in.
England's was though.
Cole's loose/breakdown play, for England, hasn't been up to his usual standards either - I'd have no qualms at bringing Wilson into the 23, if not the XV.
I'm a big fan of Brookes, but if our scrum is in trouble (and it often is) you don't want him coming on to shore it up.
 
Welcome to the forum Mattybuck.

J'nuh - Ireland's preference for Toner and POM is at least slightly rooted in the lineout, France generally take care to have someone like Chouly or Le Roux, Fardy was close to undroppable by Australia in the Rugby Championship, and so on and so on. There's nothing unusual about the back row being picked with the lineout in mind, and it's pretty conspicuous how teams where that's not the case often flounder a bit.

Needing Wood isn't about Youngs, its about how lineouts work. Hartley was floundering in the 6N without an expert back row jumper and two relatively new locks. I know Youngs isn't the greatest thrower, but if we introduced George, he'd still very badly want Wood in the back row - and he'd also not be as familiar with the jumpers and systems as Youngs. He's a better thrower, but if he's out of sync, that doesn't matter. I personally think there's a small element of risk just in the lineout in bringing in George.

Personally the biggest change I'd make to the lineout is the coaching, which I'm very sceptical about, given how poor our movement in the lineout is.

As for David Wilson, he's never been in favour. I don't understand why, it feels like a bit of a mistake, but they've played him as little as possible from day one. The only reason people might think he was in favour is the injury to Dan Cole gave them no option, but that's no longer true and look at the result. Whatever we think should happen, we should probably expect minimal Wilson. I don't get why people are so down on Dan Cole though. He was good for us in the 6N and good for Leicester. He's not doing great right now, but there's a lot of potential reasons for that.
 
This is one of the problems with the England side that Gatland copped a bit of flak for pointing out - their depth is a disadvantage at times. While I agree the initial selection is quite rightly a subject of considerable debate, if I was SL I'd probably stick with the current squad as closely as possible in the hopes that they gel together. Wales' first XV haven't played together since the Ireland match - and even then there will be some changes from that lineup. As a team that gets better and better the longer they are together that worries me more than anything. Little dropped passes and inaccuracies will cost us in this game - as they did against both Uruguay and Italy. Ireland was a much more accurate game and it showed in the result. If Wales keeps their mistakes to a minimum and manage to get some of the injuries sorted (AW Jones, S Lee and L Williams most importantly) then we've got every chance of a result.

All things aside, I'm just ridiculously excited for this weekend now! Nervously awaiting the squad announcements...guess they'll probably land Weds/Thurs?
 
This is one of the problems with the England side that Gatland copped a bit of flak for pointing out - their depth is a disadvantage at times. While I agree the initial selection is quite rightly a subject of considerable debate, if I was SL I'd probably stick with the current squad as closely as possible in the hopes that they gel together. Wales' first XV haven't played together since the Ireland match - and even then there will be some changes from that lineup. As a team that gets better and better the longer they are together that worries me more than anything. Little dropped passes and inaccuracies will cost us in this game - as they did against both Uruguay and Italy. Ireland was a much more accurate game and it showed in the result. If Wales keeps their mistakes to a minimum and manage to get some of the injuries sorted (AW Jones, S Lee and L Williams most importantly) then we've got every chance of a result.

All things aside, I'm just ridiculously excited for this weekend now! Nervously awaiting the squad announcements...guess they'll probably land Weds/Thurs?

there were a crazy amount of spilt balls against mostly amateur opposition, so im worried about that too!. got a feeling we'll come out all guns blazing on saturday, whether that'll be enough is another thing.
 
there were a crazy amount of spilt balls against mostly amateur opposition, so im worried about that too!. got a feeling we'll come out all guns blazing on saturday, whether that'll be enough is another thing.

Not worried about the Uruguay clash, we've never been brilliant against minnow opposition. The boys will be ready to go.
 

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