[2014 TRC] New Zealand v Australia in Auckland (23/08/2014)

[goodNumber10]

I think he's stuck with Beale as the game last week was so awful (weather wise) he feels he wasn't given a chance to show his stuff.

For me it should be Foley, i'd say he is the Aussie longterm 10.

 

[RoosTah]

Is there something about the Australian coach's job that turns good coaches bad or at least makes them lose their comon sense? How White and Beale are still starting (and why there are still centres on the wing) baffles me.

Are there any Australians here who think Beale should actually start at 10?

Yes. Beale deserves another shot - he's copped a tonne of criticism, but at the end of the day he scored all our points, has the best passing game in the country outside of Cooper and ultimately he played in a draw in the wet - not a 30 point thrashing (which you could be forgiven for thinking given some of the commentary).

The team were agonisingly close to winning, and there's a school of thought that building team cohesion counts for something when you're team isn't clearly in need of a restructure.

 

[squirrel]

yep I've got no qualms with Beale starting, I would prefer him at full back though with folau on the wing

 

[goodNumber10]

Yes. Beale deserves another shot - he's copped a tonne of criticism, but at the end of the day he scored all our points, has the best passing game in the country outside of Cooper and ultimately he played in a draw in the wet - not a 30 point thrashing (which you could be forgiven for thinking given some of the commentary).

The team were agonisingly close to winning, and there's a school of thought that building team cohesion counts for something when you're team isn't clearly in need of a restructure.

To be fair Coopers passing game has pretty much gone to pot over the last season..... Beales a superb passer, but those lateral runs don't work from 10 unless you're playing the short balls to someone running an unders line.

He can get away with it at 12, and with the Waratahs as he plays as second wave but as a 10 if he drifts he needs to cut out those long floating passes.

 

[RoosTah]

To be fair Coopers passing game has pretty much gone to pot over the last season..... Beales a superb passer, but those lateral runs don't work from 10 unless you're playing the short balls to someone running an unders line.

He can get away with it at 12, and with the Waratahs as he plays as second wave but as a 10 if he drifts he needs to cut out those long floating passes.

True. He definitely needs to straighten his attack and also run himself a bit more.

But part of me also agrees with Squirrel - it would almost be better having him at FB and a Phipps-Foley-Toomua combination at 9-10-12. Beale is great with space and has improved a lot under the high ball. In addition, Folau was brilliant on the wing last year and is a much more dynamic player than either Horne or McCabe in that position.

 

[goodNumber10]

True. He definitely needs to straighten his attack and also run himself a bit more.

But part of me also agrees with Squirrel - it would almost be better having him at FB and a Phipps-Foley-Toomua combination at 9-10-12. Beale is great with space and has improved a lot under the high ball. In addition, Folau was brilliant on the wing last year and is a much more dynamic player than either Horne or McCabe in that position.

my issue with Beale at 15 is he's out of the game, and I think actually easier to defend at 15 - he telegraphs that step off his right foot and his options are limited at 15 in passing. I think he's a play maker, and i like him at 12, i'd have him on the bench just because he can cover 10/12/15 and change a game - but i don't' think he warrants starting over Foley, Toomua or Folau.

I think pretty much everything is how is should be bar those halfbacks - and i really don't know what foley has done to get dropped....

Having said that though, Beale fits the EM mould, he's an X-factor player, and it will be easier to swap out Beale for Cooper than a settled Foley for Cooper.

 

[InsaneAsylum]

I'd have gone with Foley last week at 10 over Beale, but then there's the whole "building combinations" thing that people talk about

 

[RoosTah]

I think pretty much everything is how is should be bar those halfbacks - and i really don't know what foley has done to get dropped....

Having said that though, Beale fits the EM mould, he's an X-factor player, and it will be easier to swap out Beale for Cooper than a settled Foley for Cooper.

Rod Kafer put it pretty well when he said in terms of McKenzie's approach, the decision is more between Toomua and Foley, rather than Foley and Beale just because Beale is the most dynamic of the three. To a certain extent Foley and Toomua are interchangeable, but neither are really like for like with Beale, so if you want that long passing game, you have to choose between the other two.

 

[goodNumber10]

Rod Kafer put it pretty well when he said in terms of McKenzie's approach, the decision is more between Toomua and Foley, rather than Foley and Beale just because Beale is the most dynamic of the three. To a certain extent Foley and Toomua are interchangeable, but neither are really like for like with Beale, so if you want that long passing game, you have to choose between the other two.

that's fair and I see where Kafer is coming from, but Beales passing game has shone because of Foleys more pragmatic style of play at 10.

I don't think Australia need the x-factor of Beale right now, i think they need a settled and progressing team with people who can run the game plan,a nd lets face facts Foley and Toomua tore France apart in June, i think they deserved more time.

 

[RoosTah]

that's fair and I see where Kafer is coming from, but Beales passing game has shone because of Foleys more pragmatic style of play at 10.

I don't think Australia need the x-factor of Beale right now, i think they need a settled and progressing team with people who can run the game plan,a nd lets face facts Foley and Toomua tore France apart in June, i think they deserved more time.

To be fair, France were awful in that series and in the one test where they put on pressure we struggled to create anything and had to contend ourselves with a 6-0 win. The best the team has looked was on the EYOT when Cooper was playing and that's ultimately the way EM wants to play.

 

[Big Ewis]

I think he's stuck with Beale as the game last week was so awful (weather wise) he feels he wasn't given a chance to show his stuff.

For me it should be Foley, i'd say he is the Aussie longterm 10.

I agree. He's young, and does so much well already so will only improve. He's the starting 10 - not a negligible position responsibility wise, that requires tempo setting for a whole team, constant full-field awareness, precision and consistency - for the best team in Super Rugby.
With the RWC building on the horizon, the Wallabies ought to set up their machine accordingly and in tidy fashion imminently. NOW, in fact. Obviously they're not going to go Beale at FH the whole tournament (are they ?!..) or even less at the WC. So why experiment with something like this, now ?...
The only explanation I find is the coach doesn't trust a young, inexperienced Foley to start and orchestrate the team's. It was okay to try him against France, but not against NZ
Also, the Wallabies did draw against the mighty All-Blacks some days ago, a fine result in spite of anything we can throw at Beale/White...you don't want to change the halfback pairing, i.e. central nervous system of a squad, esp against NZ, just the following week. Realistically for a coach, that may not be a viable option.

 

[Jaguares]

Andrew Mehrtens is worried:

"Despite a lot of talk about the All Black response at Eden Park, I see the Wallabies as an even bigger threat this week as they eye a great chance to snap a second win streak in as many weeks," All Blacks great Andrew Mehrtens wrote in his Fairfax NZ column.

"It's 20 years since the All Blacks have lost at Eden Park and 28 since the Wallabies have beaten them on the Auckland ground. Yet both of those records must be under serious threat this week."

Mehrtens has legitimate cause for concern. The All Blacks seldom looked like breaking the Wallabies line in a rain-drenched Bledisloe opener and failed to capitalise on their sizeable advantage in the tight five.

"There's real belief in their camp now," Mehrtens continued.

"Why not? They created the lion's share of the opportunities in Sydney. The All Blacks made some big one-on-one hits and scrambled incredibly well on defence but the Aussies ran well into gaps and looked more likely to score the try that would have decided the contest.

"That they were so disappointed about the draw is also a good sign. That shows they're not willing to settle. They want that All Black scalp."

 

[jessta]

While The likes of Coltman, Funnell, Marshall, and Harris have potential but are some distance away from being ready for test rugby. Perhaps the AB's best option would be to go for a more stop-gap measure - the likes of James Parsons or Ged Robinson. Neither are going to be long term options, but would do a reliable job if required. I'm hoping for big seasons from both Ash Dixon and particularly Quentin MacDonald next year. They should be starting to come into their primes as front rowers (they are 25/26), and I think they could be potentially better options at this stage

I couldnt agree more. The hooker 'apprentice program' the AB coaches have implemented in the past just seems to focus on the young promosing hookers of NZ e.g. harris, marshall, coltman, funnell... for me some of the more experienced statesmen who have been there for a while and have performed generally solid in super rugby games such as, matu'u, dixon, mcdonald or parsons are more worthy of a shot.
I remember parsons 2013 super rugby season and thinking this guys in with a peep perhaps, then he somehow vanished come 2014. Mcdonald always impresses me in games and its a joke he got left out of super rugby this year. While matu'u offers excellent backup off the bench for the hurricanes to close up games. As if these guys arnt considered valuable options.

In general its crucial the ABs start making some tough squad decisions to form the depth we need to win the WC, cause frankly at the moment its a bit concerning. Mealamu should be gone or atleast third choice to a stella coles backup- coles is clearly the future there. A few loose heads need to be established to cover woody who is mighty old (now is perfect timing for this) hope ben franks and joe moody can lift our stocks here with some good hit outs. Todd deserves to be brought in to challenge cane for that very important richie backup role.
Good to see smith being rewarded and the selectors not holding onto blind faith with dagg. By the time the cup roles round I strongly believe piutau will be the starting right wing over jane. Jane will be an epic squad option and should start now as piutau ezes back in from injury. But piutau is a a special player with all the finese of jane plus much more strength and im very excited to see more of this in the black jersey.

 

[Big Ewis]

Andrew Mehrtens is worried:

gah, hahaha...I just love those big dramatic overly cautious warnings in sports...France are champions at it, but I see and we all know it's a global phenomenon.
France about to play Spain, Szarsewski on: "oh well we know Spain. Very good technically, excellent scrum, they run well and exploit attacking ball really well, we'll have to be ultra vigilant because this could get ugly." Scoreboard after 35min: France 43-0 Spain.

"Polemics" we call them here in Frankreich. Media and fans luuuuuuuv dat.

Random former All-Black: "We've won the Bledisloe Cahp for the last 342 years...it seems all too round a numbah...in fact, it's quite dubious when you think about it...I'm almost positively certain the Wallabies are going to smash us by a record margin of exactly 37 points, I just sense it. It's inevitable in fact. We're doomed, it's all ovah ! OH MY GOD NOOOOOOOOO !!!!!"

It's wishful thinking, ppl do it all the time. It's like you start spewing utter ****** and go on about how terrified you are of the outcome and yadi yada, and really you kind of know you're favorites, and then when your team beats the fk out of the other one: "oh well looky here, didn't see that one comin', hah, wow gee I'm just uhm...I'm just so surprised atm right now this very instant...hmm"

Not saying the Wallabies aren't winning this for sure, but this is some fine media work and personalities milking the event.

I mean, here are some worthy points going NZ's way:
- in NZ. They're at home.
- they ARE rusty when they start off, won't be next week.
- they'll have been bludgeoned to death by everybody around (staff, headcoach, each other, fans, country) and will be just forced to perform.
- they are the New Zealand All-Blacks.
- they just lost a possibility to equal or break a Tier 1 record. I think they want to eat Wallaby fillet mignon this coming w-e.

 

[Kapa O Pango]

Dane Coles should have not be subbed off so early last week, Mealamu line-out throwing was just laughable. I hope Coles stays on the full 80mins this week.

 

[Tony Manx]

May Mealamu rely on his christian beliefs to pull him through this dreadful lack of form as well as it got him off a lengthy ban that should have been imposed on him for his headbut!!

 

[Icemn]

Andrew Mehrtens is worried:

"Despite a lot of talk about the All Black response at Eden Park, I see the Wallabies as an even bigger threat this week as they eye a great chance to snap a second win streak in as many weeks," All Blacks great Andrew Mehrtens wrote in his Fairfax NZ column.

"It's 20 years since the All Blacks have lost at Eden Park and 28 since the Wallabies have beaten them on the Auckland ground. Yet both of those records must be under serious threat this week."

Mehrtens has legitimate cause for concern. The All Blacks seldom looked like breaking the Wallabies line in a rain-drenched Bledisloe opener and failed to capitalise on their sizeable advantage in the tight five.

"There's real belief in their camp now," Mehrtens continued.

"Why not? They created the lion's share of the opportunities in Sydney. The All Blacks made some big one-on-one hits and scrambled incredibly well on defence but the Aussies ran well into gaps and looked more likely to score the try that would have decided the contest.

"That they were so disappointed about the draw is also a good sign. That shows they're not willing to settle. They want that All Black scalp."

that is because the ref kept on throwing a spanner in the AB's gearbox... a spanner in the gearbox kind of prevents you from getting into 2nd, 3rd ---->7th gear... what game were you watching andrew?

talking about spanners... who is the ref this week?

 

[InsaneAsylum]

Romain Poite

 

[Bada-Bing!]

So what do Kiwis/AB fans think of Mark Reason's opinions on the stuff website? Do you think he raises valid points?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/opinion/10399601/Reason-All-Blacks-in-need-of-some-new-tricks

(1) Tactically the All Blacks seem to have stalled. The game plan that worked so well early in Steve Hansen's reign, a variation on the Crusaders game of stacking the edges with ball-playing forwards, has been worked out by the opposition. France and Argentina were the first to adapt last year, and since then most teams have managed to contain the All Blacks with a rushing inside defence and an outside drift. Since that monumental victory in South Africa, New Zealand have played seven games, and in six of them the average margin of victory is under four points. The trick of international rugby is staying ahead of the game, to keep moving. No wonder Hansen is desperate to get Wayne Smith on board. His legacy may well depend on it.

(2) Defensive speed. What was so puzzling about the All Blacks on Saturday was the passiveness of their defence. They were more aggressive on their own line, but in most parts of the field they held back. As they had decided to kick the ball back to Australia and play off defensive turnovers, a la South Africa 2007, you might have expected more attack in the defence. But they let the Australians come on and still missed a ton of tackles, the front row being particularly culpable. Contrast with Australia. Like the Waratahs they rush the first receiver, with Michael Hooper smashing Aaron Cruden early on. Smartly, in defence, the Wallabies had Matt Toomua at first receiver and brought Rob Horne in from the wing to play '12' inside Ashley-Cooper with Kurtley Beale and Israel Folau dropped deep on the flanks. Hansen's smart-alec comments about Beale playing at 10 grotesquely underestimated the flexibility of Australia's game plan.

(3) Penalties. It is a worry that refs have caught up with Richie McCaw who, as in the Super 15 final, was pinged a lot on Saturday (four times). With the captain's authority diminished, the rest of the team is now exposed. Wyatt Crockett is another serial defender. Beauden Barrett was unlucky to receive a yellow card, as no ruck was formed, justice was done - a few moments earlier, during a desperate passage on the New Zealand line, Fekitoa was offside, Mealamu was off his feet and Owen Franks was slowing the ball down. Astonishingly no yellow card. But bottom line, Richie needs to stop going in at the side.

(4) Fullback. This is a dilemma for Hansen. He wants to play Ben Smith, who is the best fullback, and who inspired two of New Zealand's finest moments against Australia. But, Crusaders man as he is, Hansen is timid about counter-attacking from deep. And if they won't launch from their own half, then the All Blacks miss the sheer length and accuracy of Israel Dagg's kicking.

(5) First-five. Cruden made a try-saving tackle and put in some fine chip kicks, but he also blew an overlap on a turnover when he broke himself and made a couple of unforced errors. Dan Carter's tactical awareness and defensive shrewdness in partnership with Conrad Smith are starting to be missed.

(6) Front five. The locks are both very fine players, but they are quite similar players. The All Blacks lack an enforcer who really shifts bodies and they are physically short in the front row. They do not compare to Dowd, Fitzpatrick, Brown, Robin Brooke and Ian Jones, the class of '96.

(7) Back row. Whisper it, but Jerome Kaino made two big errors on Saturday. When Sam Cane came on he won the first back row turnover penalty in the entire match for New Zealand. Is it time to shift Richie to 6?

 

[Darwin]

So what do Kiwis/AB fans think of Mark Reason's opinions on the stuff website? Do you think he raises valid points?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/opinion/10399601/Reason-All-Blacks-in-need-of-some-new-tricks

Without reading the article I will naturally assume it is rubbish, as that is what he usually writes.....

After reading the article...... he makes a few good points, but most of it still rubbish!

Just to briefly address the points:

(1) There is no doubt the AB's haven't been as dominant in recent matches as they have been at times in the past. The problem however is not that their game plan doesn't work, rather it hasn't been executed that well (apart from in brief periods). When they click the AB's look unstoppable at times - this indicates to me that their approach on attack is still pretty effective!

(2) The AB's line speed is fine. Australia drifted across field in attack and the AB's drifted across to cover them. The AB's loose forwards and locks in particular are noted for their linespeed on defense. The backline with Cruden at 10 can be a bit slower getting off the line than they were with Carter at 10, but it is hardly a major issue.

(3) The refs haven't caught up with McCaw. Age has caught up with McCaw. Previously McCaw got to the ball much quicker so could turnover the ball. He is much slower these days so struggles to turnover the ball legally (yet still pushes the boundaries). He had got something right though - McCaw is an issue.

(4) There is no dilemma. If the ground is dry the AB's will counter-attack from deep (as they did against England with Smith at fullback).

(5) There is no doubt Carter's defensive ability is missed. However the AB's are still a pretty handy side with Cruden at 10 - in many ways he is a better 10 than Carter these days....

(6) The locks are not similar players. If he doesn't think Brodie Retallick 'shifts bodies' he can't have actually watched him play - I can't think of a player in world rugby who is more effective in this area! The AB's front row isn't as physical as some front rows, but that hasn't been a problem these last 5+ years!

(7) If Reason thinks Kaino is a problem he needs to get his head checked! Kaino was quiet on Saturday as he injured as he injured his elbow early in the match, but has looked in phenomenal form since returning to NZ. He basically looks the same player he was in 2011 when he was the best player in the world. Why would you shift Richie to 6 when you have the best 6 in world rugby playing there?

Overall it is pretty clear he doesn't really have a clue about NZ rugby. He is just trolling as usual. This is certainly not to say their aren't issues in the AB's, just that he has completely missed most of the real problems, and identifies 'problems' that don't really exist!