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[2014 Mid-Year Tests] England

You also have to look at what they are doing in the context of their club
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Haskell is a standout performer, and leader, at wasps.
Kvesic is just another cog in a missfiring Gloucester side. He's consistent but doesn't look international quality on this seasons form: at Worcester he looked truely standout.
It's like Gibson - they both looked superb at their "lower" clubs. Make a move to help their prospects and look like standard premiership players.
I've no doubt that Kvesic will look better in the future, with change of coach or club, as at Worcester he was brilliant, but on this season's form he shouldn't be around the England 23.
 
Do Twelvetrees, Morgan or Robson look anywhere near international standard for Glos?

Kvesic is consistently hitting well into double figures in the tackle stats for a team that has one of the worst tackle completion rates in the league.*
He's also heavily involved in their counter attack - where he has contributed very well as an extra back.
To say he is not a key player for them is ridiculous.

*The same tackle completion rates that prevent him from disrupting opposition ball with any regularity.

The games in which he was put on an equal footing with other England players (last summer) he looked better than his rivals.
And the other prime example is Ben Morgan, who I'm sure you'll agree has looked positively awful for Glos at times this season yet he performed very well for England.
 
Morgan is an established player/known quantity though, not someone trying to break into the side.
I agree that Kvesic did look good vs Argentina and was worth his place in the EPS at the start of the year, but it was a very weakened/poor Argentina side, and we're a year on now.
Robson does, he's been one of Gloucester's best players. Twelvetrees has been hit and miss for Gloucester, but has been a good leader for them and, as in the case of Morgan, is already an established first team player for England. I still wouldn't be surprised to see Eastmond or Burrell tried at 12 this tour, though, and if Twelvetrees wasn't our starting 12 I wouldn't be calling for him to be it on the back of this season's form, which is the point I'm making with Kvesic.

Haskell has looked better than Kvesic this season, and as a result should go above him in the pecking order on this tour - that's all I'm saying.


Kvesic is consistently hitting well into double figures in the tackle stats for a team that has one of the worst tackle completion rates in the league.*
He's also heavily involved in their counter attack - where he has contributed very well as an extra back.
To say he is not a key player for them is ridiculous.
He made less metres, for the same amount of runs, and had a lower tackle completion rate than Haskell yesterday (they had the same number of turnovers).
 
You have to go off current form, not past and/or potential, and Haskell blows Kvesic away in that regard.

Morgan is an established player/known quantity though, not someone trying to break into the side.
I agree that Kvesic did look good vs Argentina and was worth his place in the EPS at the start of the year, but it was a very weakened/poor Argentina side, and we're a year on now.
in the case of Morgan, is already an established first team player for England.

You can't say both.

I don't want to sound like I'm being negative about Haskell - because he's playing significantly better than he has done since his first spell at Wasps.

But when a young 20 year old is brought on a summer tour with England and performs significantly better than other senior players you don't consign him to the scrapheap because they aren't tearing it up in a team that from the outside looks like it's being coached and managed abysmally. Judge him against the other England players on that tour - not the opposition. They are very good for identifying quality - in spite of the opposition.
The performances on that tour clearly correlate with performances for England since.
 
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I'm not consigning him to the scrap heap, I'm saying there are players I'd pick ahead of him. There are players I'd pick ahead of Ben Foden but I'm not saying sack him off completely.
I'd absolutely take Kvesic to New Zealand, but as 4th/5th choice flanker. Last year, for club and country, he looked like he'd be breathing down Robshaw/Wood's necks, but now I'd say he's a few steps away/been overtaken by a few.


and the form vs potential thing I meant for changes to our side, rather than players at all. It's also why, if Wade/Yarde are fit, I wouldn't throw them straight into the first test if we have Nowell/May fit and available.
 
How many times has Haskell been in form, and not stepped up to international level, though? What would be different this time?

There aren't many players I can think of that have been in and out of the England squad as he has.
 
Well I guess the best thing too happen would be a Quins v Northampton final and we would see them both together :) But genuinely Haskell I feel has played brilliantly and when I have seen him vs Kvesic he has come out on top, they both have their pros and cons-
Haskell- Big Physical carrier and Tackler, Leader, Versatility (probably the best 20 option)
Kvesic- Good tackler and Fetcher, Work rate Is crazy !
If I was Lancaster I wouldn't want Kvesic making his proper debut in New Zealand, maybe he will flourish or he will crumble. Haskell done very well in South Africa and the Six Nations (not sure why he ever got dropped ?) so I feel that Haskell wont be intimidated to go down there and put in a performance. We could also go with 6.Robshaw 7.Kvesic 8.Morgan 20.Haskell
 
So apparently they're talking to Nathan Hughes about the prospect of him qualifying in 2016...
 
So apparently they're talking to Nathan Hughes about the prospect of him qualifying in 2016...

Saw that as well....
I don't like it, and I'm not sure it's as....poachy as the article makes out.
The quote from hughes basically said there's been calls about eligibility whereas the article was going on about how England are basically grooming him. I imagine that there's a cursory call to most players managers, at some point, seeing who they're eligible for.
 
The way the England pack currently play Haskell would be the better bet although as the team develops Kvesic could be and I say could be the better long term option. It reminds me a little bit of the big England packs in the late 90s where you had blokes like Ben Clarke playing on the openside as the team developed after 1999 Neil Back came in and made the 7 shirt his own.

The big difference with the current pack is the more athletic 2nd row we have now who get though as much work as the flankers bu the same arguments back then are the same we have now regards playing what Rats would call a specialist 7 and if Im honest England were a better team with Neil Back than they were without but the real linch pin of the back row was Richard Hill who could play anywhere in the back row and he was missed alot more when injured.
 
So apparently they're talking to Nathan Hughes about the prospect of him qualifying in 2016...
I really don't like this one bit, we have enough back row players and he isn't exactly world class so we have to have him.
 
Why all of a sudden is wood being discarded? If kvesic wants in he has to play better than robshaw as he is the current 7.

And wood is a very different player from Haskell but wood who is the current shirt holder hasn't done anything wrong.

Just a note as well.

People want Haskell who is playing 7 to come in at 6.
The England captain who is a 7 to revert back to playing 6 (after he is just used to playing 7).
A no form young 7 to displace either the captain or a 6 ( who is playing much better than kvesic).

Out back row roles have been in a muddle for a while now!

Do we really think Lancaster even wants an out and out fetcher?
 
No one is disgarding him but the chances are he will miss the first test which is what I think sparked this debate....

And no the way this english pack plays the "fetcher" role is a bit of a red herring
 
Why all of a sudden is wood being discarded? If kvesic wants in he has to play better than robshaw as he is the current 7.

And wood is a very different player from Haskell but wood who is the current shirt holder hasn't done anything wrong.

I think we are all talking about the first test, Wood is too me the second captain and he and Robshaw have made one of the best flanker units in the world. The work rate and tackling ability of both is brilliant, Wood is a great lineout jumper and does the really dull stuff, Robshaw does the dull stuff and is a great link man. If anyone comes in they should play in a similar fashion and not try to reinvent the wheel.
 
Do we really think Lancaster even wants an out and out fetcher?

He's said he does. Reality is he'll stick the two best flankers he thinks he has on the pitch - but I imagine he'd like one of them to be a fetcher.

I would like to see Kvesic given a shot before Haskell. I want Haskell back in around the set up, but Kvesic has the most up side.
 
One thing Haskell does have over Kvesic that can't really be disputed is versatility. Hask has played all over the back row while Kvesic is pretty much a specialist 7 (I know he played some 8 at Wuss, but still). Haskell should be in the EPS in place of Johnson, another versatility player, at very least. He's better when playing out of position, more experienced and in better form IMO.

The Robshaw, Wood, Morgan, Binny quartet isn't likely to be intentionally broken up before the World Cup and nor should it be. We've got a well balanced back row that seems to work. However if me rely on just those four to get us from now all the way to the RWC final then we're obviously going to come unstuck. Quite apart from having to have reserve players in case of injury, we can't reasonably ask four guys to take all of load. This is why the first test is a really good opportunity because it gives us a chance to test out our other options.

For my money I think, with Wood and Binny presumably missing, something like 7. Robshaw 6. Haskell 8. Morgan starting is our best shot. Thats a back row that will tackle the NZ forwards into the ground and still be mobile enough to attack well. Obviously that leaves Kvesic on the bench, to come on at blindside and either replace Haskell man for man or, if Morgan takes a knock, have Hask move to 8. I think what Peat says about Lancaster's flanker philosophy is spot on. He'd like a fetcher but will not sacrifice playing his best two flankers in order to accommodate one.

Looking long long term, one of Robshaw or Wood will go post-2015. Kvesic and Wallace are both snapping at their heels a bit already and if they continue on their current trajectories they're going to be too good to ignore. I suspect whoever keeps there place will also get the captains armband.
 
Been more impressed with Wallace than I have Kvesic this season tbh, better in the loose and just as aggressive in the contact/breakdown and links well with Robshaw.

Have to say also Haskell he changed my mind on him the last few months would have him certainly on tour.
 
I'd also like to see Bill/Ben at 6/8 sometime. I think it's going to be a combo we end up using sometime simply due to injury - unless we use Launch/Lawes as 6 cover - so if an opportunity comes up to test it a little, that'd be grand.

Realistically though, I'd expect the World Cup back row to be Wood/Croft/Robshaw/Morgan/Vunipola (not all at once before anyone says it) providing everyone is fit. Someone will have to go great guns to persuade Lancaster to take 6 back rows along imo.
 
Yeah, Billy at 6 (where he's been playing at Sarries) alongside Morgan at 8 would be, well I think MASSive would be a good description (hello there Ewis...)

I always forget about Croft, is he going to be fit for the NZ tour do we know?
 
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