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[2013 EOYT] England

Ok, I missed the original context of the argument, so I'm not going to comment on that but

a) The Argentina tour clearly means relatively little in the management's eyes and the guys who were rested for it are still seen as really important. Burns is third choice fly-half. He will continue to be such until injury or Flood departs the country. That seems pretty clear-cut.

b) Flood is not like for like with Farrell.

c) The guy with significant international experience at inside-centre is more flexible than the guy with a season and a half of Premiership rugby at fly-half.
 
Some very interesting points raised here about England and our 'success' and our relative strength as a nation.

To start with, I think you'd have to say that there are advantages and disadvantages associated with having a large player base; it means we always have an alternative to blooding a rookie. If Corbisiero, Marler and Vunipola are unfit, we still have a options. If Tuilagi is out, we don't have to throw in Daly a bit too soon, because there's a boring old tomkins, or historically there's a jamie noon; In contrast Wales have just blooded Cory Allen and are about to blood Amos. It means we can count on more consistent performances over time and unlikely to experience the extremities. Whilst we avoid wooden spoons, we don't discover the next big thing. It also means we rarely get the most out of a player because we tend to '**** and chuck'. Would Donncha O'Callaghan have achieved 94 caps if he was English? No, though that's not because England have always had better options than him, but we've always had another potential option. This goes back to what I think about 'world class' players, and how imo they are made and not born. We convert fewer world class players because we always have a safer option.

But this thing about world class players, well I'm still torn over using it, and can't quite work out whether we should use it more freely with players or not use it at all. England don't have any players on the level of, say, Kieran Reid, Will Genia, Bryan Habana, David Pocock, Julian Savea, Carter, Mccaw, Louw, Brussow...but notice that all the examples I cite are southern hemipshere; I do feel that if those types of players are the bench mark, we in the north have pretty much none at all of that level, and therefore if that is the bench-mark for world class we are using, and it's what most people seem to use, then I'm not ashmed at all to report that Engand have no world class players because overally I don't think there's many in the northern hemisphere at all.

However, the other point I'd make as well as world class players being made by being tested at the highest level, is that your opinions can change when players maintain a high level of form over time, and that's when you start to designate players as world class. If Mike Brown is still playing the way he is now come the six nations, I believe people will begin to use different terminology to describe him. I'm experiencing that rare thing with him where I can feel my opinion of him changing and growing. If Joe Launchbury is still playing at this level every single game when he has another 12 caps to his name, I think the tag 'world class' might start to be used. In many ways the talking point with England is why so few players have been able to stay in the form that they have periodically employed. Actually I think Chris Robshaw deserves more credit than he gets for the sheer consistecy of high performances. The tag world class has never been used for him, whereas it has with Warburton - why? I frankly have no idea. Especially as Warburton has had varying levels of effectiveness in his international career so far, and this is what would make me hesitate about using the 'world class' tag with him.

But anyway, as I said before I think world class layers are made as they are capped and we realise they can make the step up - and I think England have lots of talent waiting to make that step up. It seems quite fashionable to be down on the way we evaluate where we are but I'm excited about the future. I just think that once you've added a proper attacking distributing fly-half such as Burns into the equation, with twelvetrees - who I think can be as good/as effective as Jean de Villiers - stick Tuilagi back in, add Wade and Jonny May and an in-form Mike Brown at 15 or Elliott Daly, and all of a sudden I think you're looking at a potentially class outfit, many of those players will one day be considered world class. But make no mistake, we simply cannot continue to squander/ignore backline talent in favour of known-quantities such as Chris Ashton.

And I already think we have an exciting pack. I swear that Lawes and Launchbury have both significantly improved as carriers over last year, and with the addition of the Vunipolas and Morgan we have some real options in that department. Whilst I do think Tom Wood and Chris Robshaw are an underrated combo, I'd still agree that the missing puzzle piece is bringing a proper 7 in to bring the best out of Robshaw who can move back at 6.
 
so, now that your tour is over, how do you English fans feel about the upcoming 6N ?
 
so, now that your tour is over, how do you English fans feel about the upcoming 6N ?

I think we are going to come 2nd once again unless we change how our backs oeprate. Personally I want to see us try a FH other than Farrel and for the love of God do not let Ashton anywhere near the England side. I really fail to see how we could possibly bring in a player who could be worse than him atm. Biggest worry is Wales because they always go up a gear when they face us whilst we always seem to go down one. Hopefully we won't have injuries and can look at getting a new set of backs into the game. Forwards are pretty much settled with only minor tweaks here and there needed (and no injuries please Corbs). We have a decent range of players with different playing styles to allow us to play slightly different styles of forwards play. Having 2 veyr capable 8's means we can have solid ball carriers for the entire match. Billy seems to be the bigger and stronger carrier, sucking in more defenders but Morgan has a habit of breaking the gain line better.

In the backs, well we have potential there but we have yet to see it utilised except against the weakened Argentina side on the tour. Brown, Yarde and Wade in the side is quite an exciting prospect. For once 3 backs which are actually a threat. Pretty sure we can stick Daly in somewhere and I'd like to see an alternative to Farrel. He's ok but has nothing to make the 10 shirt his own like say Mike Brown has for 15.
 
Sadly, I see no reason why the Smothering tactics we currently use can't secure another second place - but I don't see it securing enough points and I don't see it securing five wins, so I don't see us winning. Which will mean yet more time convinced we're on the path to glory when we look incapable of producing regular performances against the guys who you have to beat for trophies.
 
It has and always will come back to the fact that we still don't pick the best 9-15 and we still don't use club combinations even to help us out.

I can't ever remember a time our backs have looked threatening since......since I can remember .

You have great young players coming through their clubs but they sit in a strange pecking order when it comes to England.

2nd again in the 6 nations with our forwards dragging our 1 dimensional backs through
 
I'm a bit surprised to see two posts in a row containing such lucidity and honesty. But I do think Lancaster wants to try a more attack-minded game plan, at least in part. He's said it in the past before, and I don't think he's just spewing out words with no actual weight of intent. Eventually England will start implementing some of that, as they'll anyways get increasingly closer to the conclusion that their game is good, it's worked well, but it just won't cut it on the long run and in the big time.

Anyways:
England host Wales this year, so that's a good chance for them to finally beat Gatland's men. And they also host Ireland, the other team that's been causing England grief so that's good they're playing them in Twickenham.
Their away games include MField and Rome, and though I picked Italy to w in their first ever Rugby match against England in the 2014 Six Nations, given their form, I'll have to withhold that notion for the moment and see if Italy return to any kind of form, but as of right now England should win both those matches, whether tight, very tight or not.
The opener in France: I feel, though I may be wrong, France have finally arrived as the fairly consistent, established force we thought it was the last two years. They've clung onto some elements (defense, scrum, breakdown...) and have the personnel on paper throughout the 23. I think it's their year for the 6N, and the year they finally beat England for the first time since the World Cup.
 
Agree with Henry and Peat big time.

As for the Six Nations, there are two alternatives in my mind, what should happen and what will happen.

If we're serious about 2015 what SHOULD happen, roughly, is as follows. The EPS gets an overhaul with dead weight in the backs cut away, Yarde and Wade into the starting line up (minimum requirement), one of JJ, Trinder, Daly get a chance in the 13 shirt, some of the fringe players like Eastmond, Kvesic, May get another cap or two, even if just off the bench. We start scoring tries through the backs. Maybe we even get a few starts out of Burns. Twelvetrees gets to cement his place at 12. Results wise we need to win one of the next two tournaments, this one preferably as going into the final tournament before the RWC with big pressure to win the 6N would probably be a negative thing. As a minimum we must beat Wales, both to stop them from building too much confidence against us and to give us more confidence about the pool of death.

However, what I think WILL happen is Yarde and Wade in, no other big changes. We grind our way to second place solely by being hard to beat (an admirable quality that we should be proud of) and not through scoring tries/playing expansively. Wales beat us again and we go into the summer tour having to start an internationally inexperienced team in the first NZ test, with no real indication of how much quality there is in out squad outside of a conservative starting 23 and with an ever growing 'Weslh problem' that doesn't bode well for the group of death.
 
I think it all depends on the first game, le crunch should be an intense battle and I look forward to Yoe's pain!!! :)
 
I'm thinking 3rd or 2nd because I believe France will be hard to beat this year - tipping them to win the thing - and for England, beating both Wales and Ireland is simply something we don't do! We're likely to be without the beast in midfield and that's a big loss. Could do better than third especially if the right backs are picked.
 
Beat France, away, and we're in with a very good shot, I feel.
I'd hope we'd beat Ireland and Wales as they're both in Twickers - though I could see us slipping up to the Scots or Italians.


Saw earlier that Tomkins is out for 3 months, and will probably miss the Six Nations, so that paves the way for Trinder/Joseph/A.N.Other
 
I think it all depends on the first game, le crunch should be an intense battle and I look forward to Yoe's pain!!! :)

*high pitched* AAAAAAAAH !!! Don't say that, France will get this one !! :D

P.S.: I do see England coming in as....2nd again this year. I really do. They're right there, consistent and getting better progressively, but one team decides "nah, we're going to take it" and so far it's been Wales twice. Maybe France for 2014.

P.S. 2: about the concern for the Pool of death. I'd say if anything things are looking a whole lot brighter for England now. Certainly a lot more than it did at the time the Pools came out. At that time, Australia still was feared a lot and Wales some months later won the 6N again.
Right now Australia are actually bellow England in the IRB rkg and England just beat them, though not in a very convincing way. But would the Cup start today, England wouldn't be exactly terrified of playing AUS at home, even though it wouldn't be easy either.
England host Wales this year, if they simply beat Wales which they should all their demons and you fans' fears would dissipate in a blink, all of a sudden. And then the Pool of death would look much less frightening.

Of course if England doesn't beat Wales, they battle Wales again next year in Cardiff and lose again and that's no good omen, esp. psychologically for the England players.
But I'm just saying Wales aren't invincible for England and things can clear up very, very fast. And they've got to win in Twickenham this year...
 
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Much as I doubt it, I would be very happy for us to put a huge score on Wales to make up for last year. That score flattered Wales a lot but we never hear the end of it.
 
Much as I doubt it, I would be very happy for us to put a huge score on Wales to make up for last year. That score flattered Wales a lot but we never hear the end of it.

I'm sorry, but Wales seriously dismantled England on every possible level. If anything, that score is flattering to England. Well I'd say just about right...Have you seen that thing ? They were battering England in the ruck, dominating the breakdown for 80min, beating England in the scrum, even winning a TO in the scrum, making kicks, smashing England on defense, getting turnovers, scoring tries, carrying...nah, sorry, that thing was a feast for anyone against England, and a carnage of the England 23.

And I'd like the same against England in Paris for France !...a big score on England, or at very least a victory is just about due. We seriously need to beat England and Wales some time very soon...AND IRELAND !! These darn green men won't stop drawing with us ! They won't ! :p
But this is the England thread, so..
 
I'm sorry, but Wales seriously dismantled England on every possible level. If anything, that score is flattering to England. Well I'd say just about right...Have you seen that thing ? They were battering England in the ruck, dominating the breakdown for 80min, beating England in the scrum, even winning a TO in the scrum, making kicks, smashing England on defense, getting turnovers, scoring tries, carrying...nah, sorry, that thing was a feast for anyone against England, and a carnage of the England 23. And I'd like the same against England in Paris for France !...a big score on England, or at very least a victory is just about due. We seriously need to beat England and Wales some time very soon...AND IRELAND !! These darn green men won't stop drawing with us ! They won't ! :p But this is the England thread, so..
Not really. Wales crossed our try line twice and we crossed theirs twice. Difference was neither of ours were allowed. Consider as well that Walsh was being a massive dick in the scrums (seriously rewatch the scrums and tell me that is fair, he had a go at England for "moving" whilst they were standing still), it was always a Welsh win but definitely not a 30-3 win. Then have the fact that one of the Welsh tries came from illegal play that Walsh ignored and well you get the picture. We were beaten fair and square but we were not "30-3" worth of beaten.
 
so, now that your tour is over, how do you English fans feel about the upcoming 6N ?

Positive. England have shown we have a pack and back up to compete with any pack in the 6N; they just got to sort out the back line, starting with the wings with Wade and Yarde; midfield will have to cope with out Tuilagi.

Tough schedule with only 2 home games v Wales (payback time) and Ireland; 3 away matches v
France, Scotland and Italy.

England will finish in the top 3, but where? For me the England v Wales game is England's biggest game.
 
Well either the Wales match or the France match. I feel there may be a little X factor with Ireland coming to Twickenham, maybe. But their scrum has looked downright bad lately...
So against Wales, of course it's payback for that historical loss, but if England can manage a win against France on opening weekend, they'll have a) won their toughest away match b) gotten France out of the picture per se c) got off to a fantastic start and got tons of momentum for the rest of the way.
It seems capital for England to win that match for the 2014 Six Nations.

I think our toughest one is Cardiff, followed by hosting le crunch in Paris.
It's safe to say England's Paris match is our Cardiff match, and our hosting England is the equivalent for England of hosting Wales - in terms of stakes and the importance for the sides' whole tournament.

If England lose in Paris to open the tournament, they can count on getting to play Wales and Ireland at home, and then taking care of business in MF and Rome.
Meanwhile, I don't see France losing to Italy or Ireland at home, or in MF...but Cardiff is a big one. England could count on France failing in Cardiff.
 
No definitely the match v Wales is bigger than the France game. Wales fans have not stopped reminding England fans of the beat down they gave us in Cardiff; that and also it is a dress rehearsal for the WC. Playing Wales at Twickemham is a totally different proposition to playing Wales in Cardiff.
 
yeah you're right.
I just meant really that the France game is very important because it's their toughest away game and the very start to their 6N. They get to play Wales at home. Perhaps it'll be tougher for England to win in Paris than beat Wales at home. We'll see.
 
yeah you're right.
I just meant really that the France game is very important because it's their toughest away game and the very start to their 6N. They get to play Wales at home. Perhaps it'll be tougher for England to win in Paris than beat Wales at home. We'll see.

Yeah, but England have a good record in Paris, so we're not worried.:p. If France are kryptonite to the ABs; England are France's kryptonite. I've followed England v France since 1991, and we must have won at least 70% of the encounters in the 5/6N, I think at one point France could not win for 7 straight years during the Will Carling years. Ahhhh, happy memories. Brian Moore always wound up the French row and there'd always be a mass punch up.:0).
 
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