[2013 EOYT] England

[ratsapprentice]

"We need someone similar to Manu" .... err
The only EQP backs that I am aware of that have the physical capabilities of Manu are nowhere near being in contention.
Javiah Pohe at Leicester could join Manu in what would probably be the most physical centre combo in England - but he's 19 and in a similar situation to Manu at that age.
I would imagine he's putting on a load of weight in the gym for the next year or so and then leaning up the year after that.
Even then, I don't know how bothered he is about playing for England (he's half Cornish and has lived here for years) - he supports the AB's I think even though he's played for England age groups.
...Then there's Lawrence Okoye; who never played the sport professionally (only for academies) and is currently playing in the NFL.
So... yeah... good luck in finding that guy.

I'd also like to find a good footballing 13.
JJ and Trinder are the main options there I think, with Daly a possibility too.

Interesting* call from Woodward in his DM column:

Full back Mike Brown and fly-half Owen Farrell are the only players nailed on for the 2015 World Cup. So knowing that I would be tempted to use the Six Nations to field a totally different back line, leaving these two out and using the likes of Freddie Burns, Danny Cipriani, Anthony Watson, Christian Wade, Marland Yarde, Luther Burrell, Jonny May and Henry Trinder.

*possibly just controversial for the sake of it.

 

[Peat]

I'd just like another international quality 13 full stop. Whether he's like Tuilagi or not is irrelevant to whether he's good enough. Tomkins isn't that and Joseph is an open question mark.

The closest thing we have to another international quality 13 right now is Matthew Tait.

 

[nickdnz]

What ever happened with Jordan Turner-Hall? I haven't watched many Quins games this season but a few seasons ago I thought he looked pretty promising - but after a few caps for England seems to have just been dropped.

 

[Patchey]

I'd just like another international quality 13 full stop. Whether he's like Tuilagi or not is irrelevant to whether he's good enough. Tomkins isn't that and Joseph is an open question mark.

The closest thing we have to another international quality 13 right now is Matthew Tait.

This. Tait is the only 'proven' 13 we have while i'd argue Daly has the potential to be as good, if not better. JJ may or may not be there. May could possibly play 13?

What ever happened with Jordan Turner-Hall? I haven't watched many Quins games this season but a few seasons ago I thought he looked pretty promising - but after a few caps for England seems to have just been dopped.

He's injured now but even if he was fit, his form has dropped off a cliff. Seems winning a couple of caps in 2012 will be the high water mark of his career.

 

[ratsapprentice]

What ever happened with Jordan Turner-Hall?

To be succinct: he's ****.
He's always looked out of his depth in Saxons games when I've watched him.
One of those players who thinks they have a much bigger physical presence than they do in actuality.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Isn't Tait focusing on being a fullback now, though? Though he's gone back to being permanently crocked, it seems.

One of Tait or Daly would be great for the 23 shirt, though - and good to have in reserve in case of injury to Tuilagi etc.

 

[nickdnz]

He's injured now but even if he was fit, his form has dropped off a cliff. Seems winning a couple of caps in 2012 will be the high water mark of his career.

To be succinct: he's ****.
He's always looked out of his depth in Saxons games when I've watched him.
One of those players who thinks they have a much bigger physical presence than they do in actuality.

Explains it. In 2011 I liked him for the Quins, and what I saw last season he looked solid. But seeing as no one has mentioned him in a year or so I was wondering what happened.

 

[Patchey]

IMO he got into the England set up partly because of his form in 2011 and, with Tuilagi injured and all the other centres from the previous EPS dropped, there was no one else to play 13.

 

[Peat]

Isn't Tait focusing on being a fullback now, though? Though he's gone back to being permanently crocked, it seems.

One of Tait or Daly would be great for the 23 shirt, though - and good to have in reserve in case of injury to Tuilagi etc.

Yes. The fact he's still our next best proven 13 says everything we need to know about this debate. If it came to it I'd back him to remember what to do fairly quickly though.

I'd also point out the JTH thing is minorly moot in that he was always a 12 and I can't say I'd rely on him to pick up 13 quickly.

 

[ratsapprentice]

The 2011/12 Quins squad all looked fantastic - I think it's clear in retrospect that on the whole they were far more than the sum of their parts.
That was a fantastic team, with a fair few very average players.

 

[Patchey]

The 2011/12 Quins squad all looked fantastic - I think it's clear in retrospect that on the whole they were far more than the sum of their parts.
That was a fantastic team, with a fair few very average players.

That season brings a tear to my eye.

 

[Peat]

The 2011/12 Quins squad all looked fantastic - I think it's clear in retrospect that on the whole they were far more than the sum of their parts.
That was a fantastic team, with a fair few very average players.

They also had in Nick Evans the arguably then world second best fly-half at the peak of his powers with no international duties distracting him. I think he alone excused a fair few frailties elsewhere.

 

[Patchey]

They also had in Nick Evans the arguably then world second best fly-half at the peak of his powers with no international duties distracting him. I think he alone excused a fair few frailties elsewhere.

It helped we had a functioning pack as well back then. I think apart from Glos we have the weakest tight five in the Premiership right now.


Back to England, read in the Standard this morning that because the first test of the NZ tour is a week after the Premiership final and as such, any England players who are in the final won't be able to play. Lancaster was quoted as being a bit miffed by this but will use the first test to give players less likely to start under normal circumstances the chance to stake a claim. As far as he is concerned the odd nature of the first test doesn't make the series irrelevant.

Thoughts?

 

[ratsapprentice]

Let's hope it forces his hand to play new players in the 6N in preference of players earning their first cap vs NZ in NZ.

 

[Peat]

Can't really argue with Lancaster there. It is crap but you have to get on with it. It does offer an opportunity, we should make the most of it. And no series with NZ is irrelevant.

That we are in this scenario to begin with is deeply annoying and I think we'd all like to know who's responsible for this cock-up.

 

[Patchey]

Aye. I don't think anyone can guess what the EPS will look like come next summer but it is safe to assume that Six Nations form and appearances will play a big part in shaping it. TBH I'm already excited for the 6N only a few days after the end of our EYOT campaign.

Incidentally, does anyone know if there will be midweek games on the NZ tour? I know France played the Blues last year.

 

[nickdnz]

It helped we had a functioning pack as well back then. I think apart from Glos we have the weakest tight five in the Premiership right now.


Back to England, read in the Standard this morning that because the first test of the NZ tour is a week after the Premiership final and as such, any England players who are in the final won't be able to play. Lancaster was quoted as being a bit miffed by this but will use the first test to give players less likely to start under normal circumstances the chance to stake a claim. As far as he is concerned the odd nature of the first test doesn't make the series irrelevant.

Thoughts?

It would probably be more beneficial to just call in England 'A' vs New Zealand 'A' and use the game as a development game. Usually the series is used to give new players some game time (this year we had Steven Luatua, Charles Piatau, Ben Afeaki, Jeremy Thrush as well as some newish players). That said we may not want to be looking for new players come the start of 2014 (which I think there is always room for one or two of them - we may even see Peranara play a game seeing as he doesn't seem to get a chance this tour <_<) with a RWC the following year, and maybe 'A' games won't sell as well. Chances are though we'll be still in the SR season (which is annoying as hell) so NZ is bound to have a few injuries to match it, as well as a sabbatical or two.

The whole incident really just shows how much we need a global calander.

 

[Patchey]

I guess DC will still be off and Conrad Smith as well? I think we're likely to be missing either our Tigers or Saints players, possibly both, which would really weaken us in some key areas. I think you're right though, billing it as an 'A' game might detract in terms of interest and crowds but maybe if there could be an informal agreement to play newer players that might be beneficial.

 

[Crapspray]

If we want to get rid of the average players, we start with Farrell... etc.

At no point did I say Farrell was better than Flood. Farrell is going to start. I did qualify it as, "rightly or wrongly, is the incumbent." at that point the question is who is in the 22 shirt. For me, it would be far more useful to have Burns there than Flood "choosing Flood would be choosing the average player ahead of the talented one, Burns."

What I said of Flood is that he's overrated by many, which I see as the green grass on the other side. If a player has 60 caps and he's still not seen, by the management at least (and I don't buy the idea of nepotism), as better than Farrell then it's far more useful to play someone like Burns at 22, who stands a better chance of ousting Farrell. I also believe the contrast of Burns and Farrell offers greater flexibility in the 23.

To reiterate: Farrell < Flood, Burns > Flood at 22, given Farrell will be starting.

 

[Peat]

If this thread takes the point of view that we automatically accept the management's bouts of window-licking as what we would do, it would in fact be the size of a harvest mouse's wang.

I also disagree with this notion of sticking in the younger man in the hope of some development miracle and would rather have the stronger player in the 23. Flexibility is overrated, particularly in the case of full-backs, where we usually have ten thousand. Besides - eyes of the management - if Burns can't oust Flood, he's not going to oust Farrell.