[2013 EOYT] England

[Rich Taff]

I'm really struggling to think who it was. He was a black guy, it may have been Yarde and I was getting mixed up as I only caught highlights of the game in mention.

 

[Patchey]

Don't think Eastmond is going to be an option for England in any position come the 6 Nations if the rumours are true...

Anyway, some thoughts about England post-EOYT:

Encouraging that we won the first two tests and showed that last year wasn't a complete fluke by putting in a very good performance against the All Black with arguably a weaker team. The addition of Corbs, Tuilagi, Wade and Yarde to the team would have made for something very interesting.

Generally we've been strong in the pack, lots of room for improvement but as a unit the eight have worked well. Fears about prop depth proved to be a little unfounded as Marler upped his game yesterday. It was good to see some Cole/Wilson competition for the starting jersey, long may it continue! The back row looks a lot more settled and we have two quality number eights competing for the jersey which can only mean good things. The backs are another issue, looking nowhere near as good as a unit or individually as the forwards. Mike Brown has been excellent, Foden and Twelvetrees (Australia game aside) good, Yarde okay and everyone else fairly average.

The main 'fix', in my view, is in squad selection. Of the current EPS we need to loose Goode, Ashton, Tompkins and get the likes of Watson, JJ, Daly involved. Wade and Yarde need to get a run of starts on the wings. Relatively simple changes but I think they would go a long way towards making our game more expansive and us actually scoring some half decent tries. Whoever deputises for Manu can't be expected to provide the same crash ball momentum he does, which appears to be how Tompkins was told to play. Without Manu making breaks and offloading we need a better distributor at 13, someone who can ran at gaps, fix defenders and then put our outside backs in space. Trinder, Daly and JJ can all, on form, do that very well. Tompkin and Burrell cannot.

We also need to look at what we want from out fly-half. Farrell kicked very well throughout this series but I don't think one can argue that Burns or Flood would have kicked any worse. Farrell's defense and kicking accuracy are hailed as his stand out artibutes but I'm unsure as to weather he is so good in these areas that we can ignore his inability to attack. He looks like he is really trying to attack more in the way we is running at the line and looking to put people through gaps but he can't seem to do it. Note the two passes he gave to Tompkins yesterday that were knocked on, mainly because Farrell mistimed what was in effect a simple short ball. A similar thing happened in the build up to Twelvetree's try against Argentina. We invariably look better when Flood comes on and plays at ten near the end of games but it seems that Farrell has the shirt and as such will have to actively start playing worse, rather than just be consistently average, to loose it. And in case anyone think's I'm just a Farrell/Sarries hater, until this Summer I supported his selection ahead of Flood and Burns.

Finally, whatever course Youngs was sent on last year that sorted his throwing out should be repeated. Having almost brought it up to a good standard he seems to have forgotten how to throw again, even with Parling running the line out. If he can't sort it out by the Six Nation's we may have to look to Webber. I really like Youngs as a player in other aspects of the game but if he can't throw well enough he can't play international rugby.

It is a shame we don't have another test coming up, maybe against Fiji, Samoa, Tonga or the BaBaas. Something a little less intense where we could try some fringe players out. There aren't that many games left until the World Cup now and while the EPS is beginning to take shape as a squad there is a problem that there are a few of fringe players, Kvesic, Eastmond (if he stays in union) etc, who are going to need some serious game time if we've considering taking them to a tournament as intense as the World Cup where a large squad is needed.

In line with the above I'd hope/pray/expect a 23 like this for the start of the Six Nations, assuming Tuilagi is still out.

1 Corbs
2 Hartley
3 Cole
4 Launchburry
5 Parling
6 Wood
7 Robshaw
8 Morgan

9 Dickson
10 Flood
11Wade
12 Twelvetrees
13 JJ/Daly
14 Yarde
15 Brown

16 Wilson
17 T.Youngs/Webber
18 Marler
19 Lawes
20 B.Vunnipola
21 Care
22 Burns/Farrell
23 Foden/Watson

 

[Crapspray]

A similar thing happened in the build up to Twelvetree's try against Argentina.

On that small point: The ball was meant for Ashton; Tomkins was a dummy runner and Farrell passed it behind himself. If Ashton had been there to catch it (what with his fantastic support lines that have been absent for two years) he would have been straight under the posts.

I also can't agree with the "put Flood in" response to the backline's problems. Flood seems to have the physical and emotional presence of a wet paper bag at international level. I can't reconcile the attitude of playing Flood and then calling for the inclusion of players like Watson and Daly. Farrell and Burns offer a greater contrast in play-style and are far better in their respective strengths. Toby Flood has had years now to earn the 10 shirt, and only convincingly held it in 2010/11. He isn't the solution to England's problem- nor is Farrell the sole source of it. Not to mention that he was playing alongside Youngs in 10/11, who was vastly better than he is now.

My changes for the Six Nations:

In: May and Daly,
Out: Ashton and Goode

Keep Trinder as cover for Tuilagi, and Watson hanging around the training camp. If Eastmond does leave Union, bring in Burrell. Starting lineup of Dickson, Farrell, Yarde, Twelvetrees, Tuilagi/Trinder, Wade, and Brown. Bench of Care, Burns, and Foden.

 

[Patchey]

On that small point: The ball was meant for Ashton; Tomkins was a dummy runner and Farrell passed it behind himself. If Ashton had been there to catch it (what with his fantastic support lines that have been absent for two years) he would have been straight under the posts.

I also can't agree with the "put Flood in" response to the backline's problems. Flood seems to have the physical and emotional presence of a wet paper bag at international level. I can't reconcile the attitude of playing Flood and then calling for the inclusion of players like Watson and Daly. Farrell and Burns offer a greater contrast in play-style and are far better in their respective strengths. Toby Flood has had years now to earn the 10 shirt, and only convincingly held it in 2010/11. He isn't the solution to England's problem- nor is Farrell the sole source of it. Not to mention that he was playing alongside Youngs in 10/11, who was vastly better than he is now.

My changes for the Six Nations:

In: May and Daly,
Out: Ashton and Goode

Keep Trinder as cover for Tuilagi, and Watson hanging around the training camp. If Eastmond does leave Union, bring in Burrell. Starting lineup of Dickson, Farrell, Yarde, Twelvetrees, Tuilagi/Trinder, Wade, and Brown. Bench of Care, Burns, and Foden.

You see, for a long time I would have agreed with you there. However if you think about it, prior to 2010/11 Flood was consistantly having to play behind Wilkinson, both internationally and also for a short while at club level. After the 2011 season he was injured for the Six Nations and returned to find that Farrell all but had the 10 shirt tattooed onto his back. During the 2012 summer series we looked better with Flood at ten than Farrell. Since then Flood has suffered because whenever he does start the game plan doesn't seem to change. Case in point would be last year against Italy. I remember watching Flood back nearly a dozen of his little half breaks only for every other England player to be too far behind, as if they were unsure of how to support a fly0half who doesn't just pass the ball onto the centres and hope magic happens. If you look at Tigers player they are always right behind him when he makes a break, ready for an offload or at least to quickly recycle the ball and stop a turn over. As for physical presence, I'll admit Farrell is bigger and puts in bigger hits. However Flood doesn't exactly fall off tackles.

How does playing Flood not allow Watson and Daly to be picked? You've lost me there.

Good shout on May though, I, just like the selections, appear to have forgotten he exists.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

If we pick Eastmond we'd have to padlock the fire exits at Twickers at half time, though - the health and safety fines could bankrupt the RFU

 

[Crapspray]

During the 2012 summer series we looked better with Flood at ten than Farrell.

But, at the same time, we've never managed a positive result with Flood at 10. All of England's best recent games (personally, NZ this year and last, Scotland, and Ireland) have been with Farrell at 10.

However Flood doesn't exactly fall off tackles.

But he does have the habit of getting injured after 5 minutes and missing crucial kicks at goal. Which he did in the third test in South Africa, and then again against the 'boks at Twickenham. At which point we brought Farrell on anyway.

How does playing Flood not allow Watson and Daly to be picked? You've lost me there..

It's the contradictory attitude. We want players who show plenty of talent to be included ahead of average players with more experience- e.g. Daly, Watson, and May. For me, choosing Flood would be choosing the average player ahead of the talented one, Burns.

Farrell, rightly or wrongly, is the incumbent. I'd far rather see Burns coming on to chase a score or open up a game than Flood. Similarly, I'd rather bring on Farrell for Burns if we have to defend a lead/play undersea rugby at Murrayfield.

I think Flood is far too often the greener grass on the other side.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I'd forgotten that Daly plays a fair bit of 13 - that's something I'd be very interested to see.
He's playing mostly at 15 since his return from injury though, I think?


Will be interesting to see which way we go with outside centre in the Six Nations, with Tuilagi out. Going on previous England form I wouldn't be surprised to see Barritt or Twelvetrees shifted there....
In the EPS/Saxons, for centres, we've got:

EPS:
Burrell - is a 12. Has played some 13 for Leeds and Sale to not much effect.
Eastmond - is a 12. I could see him being a decent 13, but would need a fair amount of game time there before going there internationally, and he won't get that at Bath with JJ about. Also there's rumours he wants out of Union.
Joel Tomkins - didn't do anything to keep the shirt. What's worrying is that I don't think he's done enough to lose it in Lancaster/Farrell's eyes.
Henry Trinder - Would be my first choice from the EPS lot. Question marks over his defence,though it looks much improved this season, but his attacking play is very very good.
Twelvetrees - is a 12. Wouldn't want to see him shifted out.

Saxons:
Allen - a 12. Never really got a proper shot at international rugby, doubt he ever will now, bar a long list of injuries.
Lowe - Out for the season.
Daly - playing a lot of 15 atm. Very exciting and talented player, though. Want to see him brought into the EPS in place of Goode.
Joseph - not on great form for Bath, though hard to say whether that's him or Bath's general backs play. Wasn't blown away by him over the summer, but wouldn't be adverse to seeing him given a real go.

Injured:
Barritt - think he's back for the Six Nations? He'll start at least one game, I reckon. Wouldn't be surprised to see him play 13 outside Twelvetrees.
Tuilagi - out until the summer. If he's back playing by the NZ tour then it'd take something special to keep him out of the 13 shirt.

 

[Aristodemus]

That just isn't true, we have had numerous results with Flood at 10, a few wins against Australia for example. I am not saying he should play, I would have Burns starting, but he is a better player than you are making out. I think Johnson going with JW for the 2011 WC was his biggest mistake and cost him his job.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Anyone watch the Bath/Exeter LV game today?

Nowell and Watson were fantastic.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Saw the last 15mins or so, Nowell was very impressive. Cropped up absolutely everywhere, even in the forwards :lol:

The future is looking bright for England, with the amount of England u20s stars successfully making the step up to senior rugby.

 

[SecondRow04]

I hope Eastmond doesn't go back to League. He is a player who has real potential in union and i was hoping would get a chance in the 6Nations. He should really have had the 23 shirt this autumn as I think he has that ability to change a game.

Why is there always a player that really shouldn't be involved with England? I saw a highlights package BTSport put together of Joel Tomkins that had only 1 pass and 1 try... in all the Sarries games i'd watched him in i thought he was fairly anonymous so what were they expecting of him at international level? Despite the heavy rain hes had to play in at Bath I would have had Joseph play because I thought he played well in the summer.

Would like the team for the 6Nations opener to look something like this

1. Corbs
2. Hartley
3. Cole
4. Launchbury
5. Lawes
6. Wood
7. Robshaw
8. Vunipola
9. Dickson
10. Burns
11. Yarde
12. Twelvetrees
13. Jospeh
14. Wade
15. Brown

16. Youngs/ Webber
17. Vunipola/ Marler
18. Wilson
19. Parling/ Attwood
20. Morgan/ Kvesic
21. Care
22. Farrell/ Flood
23. Eastmond

We really need to develop a backline that will just go out and play heads-up rugby. Brown and sometimes 36 are the only players for me who seem to have a go.

 

[Patchey]

But, at the same time, we've never managed a positive result with Flood at 10. All of England's best recent games (personally, NZ this year and last, Scotland, and Ireland) have been with Farrell at 10.


But he does have the habit of getting injured after 5 minutes and missing crucial kicks at goal. Which he did in the third test in South Africa, and then again against the 'boks at Twickenham. At which point we brought Farrell on anyway.


It's the contradictory attitude. We want players who show plenty of talent to be included ahead of average players with more experience- e.g. Daly, Watson, and May. For me, choosing Flood would be choosing the average player ahead of the talented one, Burns.

Farrell, rightly or wrongly, is the incumbent. I'd far rather see Burns coming on to chase a score or open up a game than Flood. Similarly, I'd rather bring on Farrell for Burns if we have to defend a lead/play undersea rugby at Murrayfield.

I think Flood is far too often the greener grass on the other side.

Agreed Burns is a talent, but I'd frame it as chosing a talented played (Flood) over an average one (Farrell). Burns doesn't yet have the consistency, which is what a lot of young 10s have suffered from, whereas Flood is consistant and better than Farrell at the same time. On everyone's current form I would pick Flood to start with Burns on the bench unless injured, then Farrell.


Olly, I think Daly has done a bit of both this season owing to Wasps having injuries in the centres and at fullback. To be honest I don't think it matters as much where he is playing club rugby, he's the first young, out and out utility back we've have since Tait came on the scene.

 

[j'nuh]

Burns has as much consistency as Farrell, it's just that Farrell plays behind a pack that can win games even when he's not firing, whereas Burns has to be at his best for Gloucester to hope for a win. If Farrell pings a corner, his pack will apply pressure. When Glos do it, everything's a little more lacklustre. It gives the illusion that Farrell controls the game better, but really it's more that Farrell's pack knows better how to convert that pressure into points.

The area Burns falls down in currently is in goal kicking. But I'd like to see Twelvetrees take the kicking duties for Gloucester, and possibly England.

 

[Peat]

But, at the same time, we've never managed a positive result with Flood at 10. All of England's best recent games (personally, NZ this year and last, Scotland, and Ireland) have been with Farrell at 10.


But he does have the habit of getting injured after 5 minutes and missing crucial kicks at goal. Which he did in the third test in South Africa, and then again against the 'boks at Twickenham. At which point we brought Farrell on anyway.


It's the contradictory attitude. We want players who show plenty of talent to be included ahead of average players with more experience- e.g. Daly, Watson, and May. For me, choosing Flood would be choosing the average player ahead of the talented one, Burns.

Farrell, rightly or wrongly, is the incumbent. I'd far rather see Burns coming on to chase a score or open up a game than Flood. Similarly, I'd rather bring on Farrell for Burns if we have to defend a lead/play undersea rugby at Murrayfield.

I think Flood is far too often the greener grass on the other side.

What major chance has anyone but Farrell had recently? What have we done that beats actually winning the Six Nations and beating a 3N team away from home, both of which were done with Flood?

Every fly-half misses kicks. It's not difficult to point at a list of very poorly timed misses from Farrell, and I think we're rather lucky that his first-half showing against Australia doesn't come on the list.

If we want to get rid of the average players, we start with Farrell. What does he do well - christ, what does he even do averagely? Goal kicking? He's around the 80pc mark, I call that pretty poor for an international goal kicker tbh, and his range is pretty short. Tactical kicking? How often do we see him really pin the opposition back in the corner? When was the last time he used a crossfield kick or chip to create something for England? His passing, for an international fly-half, is below average. His running game is below average. About the only thing he does is tackle people.

Meanwhile, Flood has a decent kicking range with an 87pc success rate, a good running game, fantastic awareness on the gainline, good pass, good defence... his main problem is he gets injured a lot but I've seen no one recommending we axe Corbs or Morgan to pick two other guys with poor injury profiles. No one mentioned it as a reason not to bring back JSD, which most of us had been screaming for.

Toby Flood is comfortably one of the two best English-qualified fly-halves playing and should be in the 23 until he's not. It's that simple. If Burns or anyone else is missing out, it's because of the incredibly bizarre regard the English coaching staff hold Owen Farrell in. I cannot think of a fan I know who rates him, and that's including some very intelligent and well-informed ones. Very bizarre.

I'm really struggling to think who it was. He was a black guy, it may have been Yarde and I was getting mixed up as I only caught highlights of the game in mention.

Luther Burrell at Northampton?

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

If Burns or anyone else is missing out, it's because of the incredibly bizarre regard the English coaching staff hold Owen Farrell in. I cannot think of a fan I know who rates him, and that's including some very intelligent and well-informed ones. Very bizarre.

I think it is much simpler than that, daddy Farrell is on the coaching staff and I would not be suprised if he is using every bit of his influence to make sure Owen Farrell stays in the team.

 

[Chikwa]

What major chance has anyone but Farrell had recently? What have we done that beats actually winning the Six Nations and beating a 3N team away from home, both of which were done with Flood?

Every fly-half misses kicks. It's not difficult to point at a list of very poorly timed misses from Farrell, and I think we're rather lucky that his first-half showing against Australia doesn't come on the list.

If we want to get rid of the average players, we start with Farrell. What does he do well - christ, what does he even do averagely? Goal kicking? He's around the 80pc mark, I call that pretty poor for an international goal kicker tbh, and his range is pretty short. Tactical kicking? How often do we see him really pin the opposition back in the corner? When was the last time he used a crossfield kick or chip to create something for England? His passing, for an international fly-half, is below average. His running game is below average. About the only thing he does is tackle people.

Meanwhile, Flood has a decent kicking range with an 87pc success rate, a good running game, fantastic awareness on the gainline, good pass, good defence... his main problem is he gets injured a lot but I've seen no one recommending we axe Corbs or Morgan to pick two other guys with poor injury profiles. No one mentioned it as a reason not to bring back JSD, which most of us had been screaming for.

Toby Flood is comfortably one of the two best English-qualified fly-halves playing and should be in the 23 until he's not. It's that simple. If Burns or anyone else is missing out, it's because of the incredibly bizarre regard the English coaching staff hold Owen Farrell in. I cannot think of a fan I know who rates him, and that's including some very intelligent and well-informed ones. Very bizarre.



Luther Burrell at Northampton?

Definitely not Toby flood!

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I think it is much simpler than that, daddy Farrell is on the coaching staff and I would not be suprised if he is using every bit of his influence to make sure Owen Farrell stays in the team.

I think it's Lancaster as much as Farrell.
Lancaster strikes me as the type to play it safe, and after mixing things up when he first came in, he's got his squad and he doesn't want to tinker with it too much. He's got Farrell as his 10 and Flood as his experienced bench option - no need to give Flood (m)any starts because he's got the experience to slot straight in there.

I want all of Farrell, Flood, Burns and Ford to come down with norovirus in the run up to the Six Nations, Cippers to come in and us to win the grandslam

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I think it's Lancaster as much as Farrell.
Lancaster strikes me as the type to play it safe, and after mixing things up when he first came in, he's got his squad and he doesn't want to tinker with it too much. He's got Farrell as his 10 and Flood as his experienced bench option - no need to give Flood (m)any starts because he's got the experience to slot straight in there.

I want all of Farrell, Flood, Burns and Ford to come down with norovirus in the run up to the Six Nations, Cippers to come in and us to win the grandslam

The only thing Cipriani will win is the most missed tackles award. Great going forward but still useless in defence....and if anyone says Cipriani has improved his defence then please watch any sale match and see that he doesn't/ can't won't tackle still.

I think it's too near to 2015 to bring on another 10, Lancaster will stick with Farrell and Flood rightly or wrongly that,s what he will do.

What we really need is another 13 who is similar to Tuilagi to slot in if he is ever injured.

 

[Patchey]

We don't need another 13 who is similar to Manu, that would be a massive overkill and make our back line more one dimensional. We need one or two outside centres who run good lines and put the outside backs in space. You might use the term 'good footballers' if you were a bit old fashioned. Not only would that give us options at 13 when Manu is injured but it might press him to improve his game, something he has never really had to do.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

The only thing Cipriani will win is the most missed tackles award. Great going forward but still useless in defence....and if anyone says Cipriani has improved his defence then please watch any sale match and see that he doesn't/ can't won't tackle still.

Yeah, I agree - I mean, I can't remember the last time I watched a Sale game. Not like I've a season ticket or anything....

Go and watch our win vs Bath. 13 tackles, 0 missed, including smashing their big Samoan backrower into touch to stop a try.

I suggest you watch any Sale match and see that he can ​tackle, and gets involved a lot more than he has done in previous years.