[2013 EOYT] England

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

All i meant by finding a 13 similar to Tuilagi is that when Manu is injured we play someone else there and try and use the same game plan which doesn't work as the other players are too different......So maybe i should have said

If Lancaster continues to use the same game plan even when Tuilagi is injured then we need to find someone with similar strengths. If he changes the game plan then a different style of 13 would be welcome. It's just when we had: JJ, barritt, Tompkins play there all the game plans still seemed to be them smashing the ball up which none of them can do.

 

[j'nuh]

In the All Blacks game, Brown beat 7 defenders in 8 runs, Twelvetrees beat 3 defenders in 13 runs and the other 21 players beat 6 defenders in 114 runs.

This follows from the Australia game, where Brown beat 8 defenders in 17 runs, Yarde beat 4 in 9 runs, and the other 21 players beat 8 defenders in 76 runs.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Re Clive's DM column...



I also just wanted to contribute helpfully to this conversation by saying...

Elliot Daly Elliot Daly Elliot Daly Elliot Daly Elliot Daly Elliot Daly Elliot Daly Elliot Daly Elliot Daly

He has the tightest all round skill-set of any English 13 I've seen for a long time. He's also one of the most intelligent players Wasps have and makes good decisions. His defence is excellent for his size, though players at international level are generally bigger so that would be a step-up.

And regarding goal-kicking, if Mike brown wasn't in such form I'd be saying Daly should be our goal-kicking full-back which in future will take the pressure off a running 10 like Burns

 

[Patchey]

Where ever Daly is on the team sheet if England were to ignore his absolutle canon of a boot it would be a pretty glaring error. He can knock penalties over from 60m with relative ease. He certainly has a much greater range than Farrel, Burns or Flood. Twelvetrees has a pretty big boot too I think.

 

[j'nuh]

Daly's got the added bonus of being useful even when Tuilagi is around. Any other 13 that we'd try now, would be pretty much instantly dropped, not only from the XV but probably the 23, when Tuilagi comes back. Daly could play on wing or fullback whilst simultaneously acting as 13 cover for Tuilagi.

 

[j'nuh]

Bump: question for everyone that I've been wondering.

England have the worst back line of any team in the world's top 7 or so.
England can claim to have one possibly world class player (Corbisiero, who is chronically injured) and probably no world XV players.
England supplied relatively few players to the Lions, particularly in terms of the test teams.
England's pack isn't particularly full of talent.
England is perhaps the most inexperienced team in terms of caps of any tier one nation.
England are still relatively unstable in terms of selection.

So what exactly are we doing right that means that in the last couple of years, Wales aside, we've made a pretty decent effort? We're holding our own against, or even beating, teams that have many more world class players available to them.

The only thing I can think of is that Rowntree seems to do wonders?

 

[Patchey]

Bump: question for everyone that I've been wondering.

England have the worst back line of any team in the world's top 7 or so.
England can claim to have one possibly world class player (Corbisiero, who is chronically injured) and probably no world XV players.
England supplied relatively few players to the Lions, particularly in terms of the test teams.
England's pack isn't particularly full of talent.
England is perhaps the most inexperienced team in terms of caps of any tier one nation.
England are still relatively unstable in terms of selection.

So what exactly are we doing right that means that in the last couple of years, Wales aside, we've made a pretty decent effort? We're holding our own against, or even beating, teams that have many more world class players available to them.

The only thing I can think of is that Rowntree seems to do wonders?

Agreed on Rowntreee, he seems to be a top quality coach who has a very good knack of when to bring in new players, how to handle them and when to shift players who aren't performing.

Why have England held their own against most teams? Fairly simple IMO, defense and the pack. While we may not have a pack the same calibre as back in '03 it is still a strong, ever improving unit. It was basically the pack that forced is back into the game this weekend. As for defense, while Farrell can't seem to organise an attacking more to save his life he does seem to know how to make a team bloody hard to beat. This has been a theme of England since the 2012 6N and we've only got better in this regard since then.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Alex King.

 

[Peat]

The mental resilience is spot on. I think that is huge. We have won so many games we probably didn't deserve to win because we kept plugging away and pounced like a wolf when the opportunity came. This England side doesn't panic much.

The defence is also huge. It's incredibly aggressive and really disrupts teams.

Also, our discipline is mostly excellent.

And that's it really. And I'm never quite sure whether to fete the coaching staff for creating such an environment and will to win that we can overcome such severe technical deficiencies as a backline with subpar handling skills, or express complete disgust that they seem so willing to overlook such a detail and are moving on our game at a snail's pace, if it is in fact moving.

 

[Aristodemus]

Bump: question for everyone that I've been wondering.

England have the worst back line of any team in the world's top 7 or so.
England can claim to have one possibly world class player (Corbisiero, who is chronically injured) and probably no world XV players.
England supplied relatively few players to the Lions, particularly in terms of the test teams.
England's pack isn't particularly full of talent.
England is perhaps the most inexperienced team in terms of caps of any tier one nation.
England are still relatively unstable in terms of selection.

So what exactly are we doing right that means that in the last couple of years, Wales aside, we've made a pretty decent effort? We're holding our own against, or even beating, teams that have many more world class players available to them.

The only thing I can think of is that Rowntree seems to do wonders?

IMO...

The backline put out this AI has been poor but I think if you add our missing stars we are not the weakest in the top 7, certainly a country mile behind the tri-nations though.
Corbs is world class and I feel he has a shout at being in a world XV, on form I would say Morgan and Tuilagi are world class although not world XV.
This is very true but I feel if Lancaster was coach the English contingent would have been more significant.
I would say the pack has tons of talent myself, so much more than our backs seem to have. Lots of depth too.
True, but it is a good thing isn't it to know they should improve with time and more experience.
This is a weak point, but the goal is 2015 and finding who SL wants to back for the WC should be going on now and not in two years. Plus the strength in depth causes this problem.

It seems to me that people have quite a low opinion of our player pool sometimes, aside from NZ and SA I feel we are as good if not better than the rest. The forwards as you say are clearly being coached well and the mobile pack is working wonders, I cant say the same for the backs coaching but selection is also a key factor.

 

[Rich Taff]

Polite request- 'Can we borrow a centre or two for the Tonga game?'
Please?
Pretty please?
I'm waiting for the call from Gats as I played centre 30yrs ago for my jnr school...

 

[ratsapprentice]

I don't think Toby Flood will be bothering the selectors come the 6N if rumors are to be believed...

He's visited Toulon supposedly.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I don't think Toby Flood will be bothering the selectors come the 6N if rumors are to be believed...

He's visited Toulon supposedly.

Followed by Clermont and Toulouse, I heard.

Don't blame him: Take the cash before his injuries force him to retire. He's not going to be first choice for England with Farrell (jr or sr) around, and has won a fair few trophies with Tigers.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

How to we (England) still struggle to produce great centres? I'm really struggling to think of any great English centres who don't struggle with consistency or defence or are 1 dimensional?

Even our young talent hasn't really kicked on and nailed a place in their club sides. Who were the under 20's centres and what are they up to now?

Is this a problem for other nations or just England?

And watching New Zealand convert Ben Smith from 15/ wing to 13, how would we feel about moving someone like Foden or brown to 13 (the other at FB) while Tuilagi is away? As i'm sure New Zealand have only done this while C Smith is on a sabbatical.

Young English Centres

Inside Centre
Kyle Eastmond (Bath) - in England squad question marks over his size?
Ollie Devoto (Bath) - Don't know if 12 is his main position here? and will he get game time with Henson/ Eastmond ETC
Sam Hill (Exeter) - Seems to be coming on nicely, i hope more of the young Exeter players get to play for england soon, they seem to be producing some great players.
Ryan Mills (Gloucester) - I don't think he'll get the gametime with 12trees at Gloucester
12 Trees (Gloucester) - The main man for the 12 shirt, maybe he struggles due to Farrell
Tom Casson (Quins) - Not really up to international rugby from what i've seen/ heard
A Allen (tigers) - Great club player but not much more
Shane Geraghty (Lon Irish) - Some moments of brilliance but where is the consistency, can't hold the 12 shirt
L Burrell (Saints) - Improving but question marks over his defence still remain
Barritt (Sarries) - average, so very average the noon of our generation

Outside Centre
JJ (bath) - Needs to get back on form but does he offer enough for the England 13 shirt? Possibly
Trinder (Gloucester) - Great this season but time will tell if he improves or if it's just a 1 off set of games
May (Gloucester) - Great player but what is his best position? Won't get too much game time at 13 with Trinder there
Lowe (Quins) - Was great (as was JTH) a few seasons back i know he had a lot of different injuries
Tuilagi (Tigers) - great top player but we need a back up and someone who can and WILL pass while playing for England
Guy Armatige (Lon Irish) - Havent seen enough of him to say really
E Daly ( Wasps) - i'd have him starting 13 for me...or wing...or FB do idea why he isn't in the team?
Dom Waldouck (Saints) - been injured and Saints played him mostly at 12 which didn't help
Will Asddison (Sale) - havent seen enough to say on his development
Tomkins (Sarries) - maybe not international class after watching his few caps, JJ definitely did better



Any others i've missed?

 

[ratsapprentice]

Guys from that list with a realistic chance of getting a few caps in the next couple of years IMO:

Kyle Eastmond
Sam Hill
36
Burrell
Barritt

JJ
Trinder
Tuilagi
Daly

 

[Tony Manx]

I know this is controversial but keep hearing that 36 would be a better player without Farrell at 10?

Why.......either he copes with Farrell or tells Farrell what he wants!

I remember that Wilkinson crabbed across the pitch and was often too flat (the criticisms for Faarrell) but Greenwood, in particular, and the coaching staff changed that and it did not lessen Greenwood's undoubted talents while it happened.

Maybe 36, if he really is as good as we all want hiim to be, needs to be more vociferous or deal with the cards he is dealt better.

Simplistic............? Maybe!

 

[ratsapprentice]

"Owen, PASS THE BALL BETTER!!"

I don't claim to be a tactical guru but there do seem to be some fundamental issues with the way the England backs play the game:

- They are all far too lateral - this does start at 10 (and 9 depending on who's playing) though.
- Players don't take the ball at speed.
- Passes far too often go to the man rather than space so the recipient has to check his run.

Those three combined make it very easy to complete a tackle, which goes some way to explain why we barely ever make clean breaks.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I've see ITM sides pass better than the England international backs, he'll I've seen club sides pass better....in fact I've even seen forwards pass better than our backs!

The skill level of some players is just too low: Farrell Barrett tuilagi Ashton Goode all have really poor basic rugby skills and would be better learning to play rugby from the basics again

 

[Crapspray]

If this thread takes the point of view that we automatically accept the management's bouts of window-licking as what we would do, it would in fact be the size of a harvest mouse's wang.

Another straw man. At no point was the acceptance automatic. Presumably you want all discussion to be hypothetical, with no relation to the current squad and its (and its players) performances. Unless taking everything to the Nth degree is unreasonable?

I also disagree with this notion of sticking in the younger man in the hope of some development miracle and would rather have the stronger player in the 23.

We stand to gain far more in development by giving Burns twenty more caps than getting Flood up to eighty. The whole, original discussion was about blooding inexperienced players to unearth talent. There's not much more to be dug out of Flood. Again, that doesn't imply expectation of a miracle. The argument isn't absolute.

Flexibility is overrated, particularly in the case of full-backs, where we usually have ten thousand.

Being flexible is far better than not being. What do we gain by switching a fly-half after an hour if it's like-for-like? If we want England to be the best possible side, then having flexible squad would be a very useful attribute. Again, being flexible isn't going to turn England into world-beaters, but it would improve the side by an unquantifiable amount.

Besides - eyes of the management - if Burns can't oust Flood, he's not going to oust Farrell.

Apart from the Argentina tour where he ran the show as, effectively, the sole fly-half and Flood was rested. It seems to me that the management want(ed) a closer look. If Burns hadn't had such a drop in form, I'd have expected him to be on the bench ahead of Flood this autumn. This doesn't mean Burns is a better player, or will be, only as a newer face in the squad he's likely to be less pidgeon-holed by the management; whose decisions and opinions should be taken into account, though not slavishly and automatically accepted.

 

[j'nuh]

I agree with Crapspray on this one. Flood is an old head, whose form will fluctuate based on what he does from match-to-match, rather than the opportunities given to him. Endless practise in the Heineken Cup (which isn't too below the level of international rugby) in a good side has meant that I think he's maxed on his potential. Whether he comes into another vein of form like what he showed in 10/11 will probably depend on his own mentality. The goal must be the WC. So I have no problem with dropping him, and if he happens to be the best 10 by the 6N before the WC, then he can come in and join the rest of the team. However, Burns' potential reaches further and we should nurture it.

... or we can wait for Flood to move to France and Burns to move to Tigers and for Burns to suddenly be 10 times the player he was in the coaches' eyes because he then has a good pack to work off of.