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[2013 EOYT] England

We do have quite a few potential 13s (Joseph, Tait, Trinder, May, Daly, Lowe, Guy Armitage).

It's just that there's been a very recent trend towards the bigger 13, and it's left a lot of our 13s scrambling to change positions. Even the ones that haven't transitioned yet, may not have out of circumstance. If Gloucester had weaker wingers than JSD, May and Sharples, then Trinder would have probably been given a go there. Lowe is regularly used on the wing, but has been needed primarily as a 13 for the Harlequins.

I guess Guy Armitage/Luther Burrell is the most logical replacement for Tuilagi. Not sure how Guy's getting on though.
 
I thought Burrell was thought of as a very dimensional centre during his time at Leeds? Not to say that he hasn't improved with age (guessing he's mid twenties now), but I'm not sure he's going to offer much in the way of distribution/kicking. I imagine his running lines must have improved, or always been decent, seeing as so many people have been impressed with him this season. I also seem to remember being told he was a defensive liability, but that might have been due to positioning, so could well have improved too.

Edit: Just realised I've said sod all in that. Ah well.
 
I wouldn't want Burrell at 13 for England. He was poor there for Leeds and Sale, and his defence really would be a liability there.
He's a good one on one tackler, it's his defensive...reading of the game(?) that lets him down, being in the wrong position, marking the wrong man, etc. This would be shown up a lot more at 13.
 
Personally I feel the backup for Manu should be one from JJ or Daly. Barritt starting at 13 in the 6N would be disappointing to say the least, is it 100% Tuilagi won't be back?
 
Opinions people, is Burrell an overall improvement on Tompkins or is his lack of defensive nouse enough of a problem to weigh against what he offers going forwards?


Also, is Flood does leave to go to France, who is out third 10? Cipriani or Ford seem to be the most obvious contenders for a place in the squad, although presumably they wouldn't come in until the summer or next years AIs.

It is a bit depressing that exactly ten years from that night we've done so little as a nation in terms of trophies and big wins.
 
I'd say Burrell would be a step up as he's less likely to infringe or knockon, and he'd at least worry defences a bit.

I'm being biased, but I'd really go with Cipriani. He's been more consistent than Ford all season, with better attacking and defending. Fords kicking from hand is better, but Ford is prone to an off day where it's pretty bad, whereas Cipriani is consistently average.
Cips completely outplayed Ford when they met earlier in the season as well.
 
I'm undecided about Burrell at 12 let alone as a stand in at 13.
I'm worried that people focus on his size so much, he can crash the ball ok.
But his size lets him break half tackles - not really bosh people.
I can't say I've analysed his defence so can't comment.


Looks like Parling is out:

http://www.espn.co.uk/england/rugby/story/206903.html
 
Patchey said:
Opinions people, is Burrell an overall improvement on Tompkins or is his lack of defensive nouse enough of a problem to weigh against what he offers going forwards?


Also, is Flood does leave to go to France, who is out third 10? Cipriani or Ford seem to be the most obvious contenders for a place in the squad, although presumably they wouldn't come in until the summer or next years AIs.

It is a bit depressing that exactly ten years from that night we've done so little as a nation in terms of trophies and big wins.
Click to expand...

Hilarious, you mean :p
 
As people have said Burrell can tackle fine but it is his positioning and communication that can let him down. This is getting less and less though so it's not something that will be there in his game if he continues to develop.

As for a 2nd flyhalf Lancaster his definitely pick ford. Simply because ford has constantly been on lancasters radar. Ford will continue to develop his game management but cipriani has more experience but maybe not then attitude. As long as it's not Stephen myler I don't mind
 
About England accumulating little since 2003:
well nobody was counting on on Wales and Ireland becoming forces to be reckoned with consistently, in fact troublesome for England specifically but more generally getting to the level they've had for a while now. Ireland beating Australia and getting number 1 in the Pools or Wales coming third that Cup as effigies of that current ability for both teams.
And I know it's hardly the season to make this comment, but nobody thought Italy would become a serious opponent potentially for everyone in the 6N.

I think people thought at the time that the gap between the SANZAR nations and the North would finally narrow down. That the All-Blacks would be accessible, more and more, gradually.
France has been around, as usual. Big ups big downs.

But I would attribute England's lack of success - besides their own intrinsic quality - namely to Wales and Ireland turning into true forces, I think would be a reasonable remark to be made. A hard one to accept surely for the fans on this thread, but a fact nonetheless. :D
* even if only partially explicative.
 
living sacrifice said:
As people have said Burrell can tackle fine but it is his positioning and communication that can let him down. This is getting less and less though so it's not something that will be there in his game if he continues to develop.
Click to expand...

... At 12. 13 is a whole different ball game in terms of positioning.

I cannae be arsed to listen to the radio interview, so fair enough if that's what he's hinting, but it seems a fairly radical departure from what Lancaster has been about so far.

Here's a horrible thought. Does Twelvetrees stay at 12 if Burrell is at 13? Part of me says yes, the other part sees Barritt plopped back in at 12.
 
No. Barritt's defensive game is overstated if it is thought that he can cover a 13s' tackles for him.

Burrell, if picked, is just a stand-in for Tuilagi. I'd rather just pick the 12 on the basis of who would work best with Tuilagi. And that's Twelvetrees for me.

With all the converts from 13 to wing/fullback, if I were Lancaster I'd be thinking of whether I could get Benjamin to go the other way. If Benjamin could cover wing and 13, we'd have a good power alternative/addition to Tuilagi. Obviously all subject to Benjamin regaining form.
 
I agree with that about Twelvetrees J'nuh, but I would add that Eastmond could be a great partner for Manu in the future. I think the only reason Barritt should ever be considered is if we had a real doormat of a FH which we don't.

As for the last ten years, I am sure all England fans had hoped for much more but we have still been the premier NH team in my eyes. A WC final, the best record against the SH compared to the other NH sides, inflicted the 2nd biggest defeat ever on the AB's, consistently ranked around #4 in the world, record defeat of Wales (that's for you SelimNiai :)) and another WC win to look forward to in a couple of years!
 
Wasn't going for my opinion, was going for what Lancaster will do. A defensive organiser will help someone with poor reading of the game. Plus he really likes Barritt, and Twelvetrees missed that tackle.
 
Pleeeeeeeease can we get Sam and George Burgess away from league? Sam as a 13, George as an 8...
 
Sam as a 13?!


Think the Burgess Bros. could make great 6/8s, but they'll never leave League/the Bunnies
 
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Can anyone who knows anything about league comment on where Tomkins/Eastmond/others who have converted stood in the hierarchy of rugby league players? I just can't imagine tomkins had the attributes to be all that good at it?
 

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