Wales vs England - 16/03/2013

[ratsapprentice]

Courtney Lawes has actually played pretty well when he's come off the bench, he only played badly when he started.
I'd also put Tom Youngs above Hibbard by quite a long way.
I think you're underestimating how good Barritt is in defense.

R U SCARRED NAO TAFF?

 

[Joseph14]

It's not that bad actually. There are a couple of silly comparisons but bias always plays a part. Te English locks have the upper hand right now based on recent form. The Welsh front row are better, so agree there.
Robshaw>Tip. All. Day. Long.
Warbruton and Falateu better. Agreed. Stick Wood at 6 ( one can dream! ) and that comparison has Warburton coming off 2nd best though.
Backs? All correct. Cuthbert wins by default. Ashton happens to be shitter!
Half backs are both England.
Full back...no point even discussing that one to be honest. It's a mismatch of epic proportions. Halfpenny is mustard. Goode is the third best option available to England.

Overall I expect England to lose the game and the championship with it. Wales by 9.

 

[dullonien]

Courtney Lawes has actually played pretty well when he's come off the bench, he only played badly when he started.
I'd also put Tom Youngs above Hibbard by quite a long way.
I think you're underestimating how good Barritt is in defense.

Not been impressed with Lawes other than that lineout steal against Italy. He came on and knocked himself out in one of the early games (can't remember which), and as you say he was rubbish when started at 6. Not his fault maybe, but still get's a big minus in my books. Still remember last years game too where Scott Williams just took the ball from him, that shouldn't happen to a grizzly second row!

Hibbard is better than Youngs, and I think it'll show on Sat. Youngs is better in the loose, but Hibbard is far better in the tight, and he isn't too shabby in the loose either. Hibbard is still improving after his injury before the tournament as well, so I think we'll see a step-up from him.

Not underestimating Barritt's defence. he's great in that regard. But so too is Roberts. Wouldn't be surprised if Roberts' tackle success is ahead of Barritt's this tournament.

It's not that bad actually. There are a couple of silly comparisons but bias always plays a part. Te English locks have the upper hand right now based on recent form. The Welsh front row are better, so agree there.
Robshaw>Tip. All. Day. Long.
Warbruton and Falateu better. Agreed. Stick Wood at 6 ( one can dream! ) and that comparison has Warburton coming off 2nd best though.
Backs? All correct. Cuthbert wins by default. Ashton happens to be shitter!
Half backs are both England.
Full back...no point even discussing that one to be honest. It's a mismatch of epic proportions. Halfpenny is mustard. Goode is the third best option available to England.

Overall I expect England to lose the game and the championship with it. Wales by 9.

I still don't see anything between the locks. Ian Evans has been in great form once again this tournament. Alun-Wyn Jones returned with a bang last week, and I almost guarantee he'll be better this week after getting a high intensity match under his belt. Parling and Launchburry have been very good too though.

We'll have to wait till Sat for the Robshaw v Tips match-up. You underestimate Tipuric imo. He's such a talent.

 

[Peat]

Not been impressed with Lawes other than that lineout steal against Italy. He came on and knocked himself out in one of the early games (can't remember which), and as you say he was rubbish when started at 6.

Ireland game. Human missile tackle on Kearney. Won a vital penalty doing so. Put in a big shift off the bench against Italy. I'm happy with him.

edit: Pretty much everywhere outside the props in terms of the starting packs feels too close to call for me. Going to be good.

Shame the backs are, as units, a bit gash.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

The bastion of knowledge that is ESPN Scrum p) has them at:
Barritt: 27 made, 3 missed (90% completed)
Roberts: 18 made, 3 missed (86% completed)
While I doubt they're correct, because it's ESPN, at least the inaccuracies will be equal between the two stats...

FWIW I think an on form Roberts is the better attacker easily, but Barritt is the better defender hands down. Roberts is a brilliant defender, don't get me wrong, but Barritt is one of the best defensive 12s around at the moment.

 

[j'nuh]

06 Sam Warburton v Tom Croft. Croft is quick, Sam is better at everything else.

07 Justin Tipuric v Chris Robshaw. Tipuric is the better openside, Robshaw is currently a better player, but as I've said plenty of times his skillset better suits the blindside.

08 Toby Faletau v Tom Wood. Wood is a great player, but he's not an 8. If Faletau was playing out of position at 6 against Wood, I'd favour Wood, but this isn't the case.

FWIW, this bit is a little strange for me. Wood plays with an 8 on his back, but he hasn't taken on the role of an 8. He plays exactly the same there as he does at 6 or 7, except for his function in the scrum. He's picked there in the scrum for a mix of his ball control skill and the fact that he is one of the heavier backrowers England have. It seems to me as if he's playing more the role of a 7. Even by standing at 8, he's still the player which is getting into the contact zone the most and has made more turnovers than any other England forward (8 according to ESPN, compared to Robshaw's 4).

Although he wears a 7 on his back, I cannot help but notice that Robshaw is simply playing how the best of 6s should. He has a tremendous tackle stat already stated. He's made more carries than any other England forward in 3 out of the 4 games played: an average of 12 a game (Wood has 6 a game - not enough for an 8), and most of these are in the tight. His work rate is higher than any other forward.

Haskell and Lawes were England's attempt at an answer to not having an 8 - physical players with strong ball carrying attributes. Neither delivered, and now it's Croft's turn. Rather than a traditional massive frame at 8, he'll provide pace + step as opposed to physicality in an attempt to get over the gainline (eg like Narraway and Spies), and I actually have high hopes for it to work. Like a lot of 8s, Croft often wanders the field, appearing in the backline and dropping back to receive and run back kicks.

Even though not convincing, this is how our players will play in relation to the traditional roles of 6/7/8:
6. Robshaw
7. Wood
8. Croft

In which case:
Robshaw v Warburton (although depends on which Warburton plays)
Wood v Tipuric
Croft v Faletau

 

[Aedaphon]

Cue the ridicule .

Hang on... I'd almost think you were Welsh from the way that was written?

 

[mstar]

lay off Lawes, he is a quality player. At international level he isn't a world class 6 but on form he is a world class lock. I really don't see whats so special about AWJ if i am honest. A regular playing Lawes can do everything AWJ can do AND MORE he is faster/harder tackler/better lineout stealer probably just lacks match game experience and smarts he can aquire when playing regularly at international level. I see him in the premiership week in and week out and the respect he has in that league is for all to see. As lancaster said he is probably the most feared tackling 2nd row in the premiership.

regarding Robshaw and Tips well i am choosing RObshaw the work rate and tackling ability Tips cannot compete against for a full 80mins. People forget robshaw plays number 7 for a few years its not like he just plays for england as a number 7, for the Quins in europe if he was rubbish don't you think he would of moved to 6? the stats and his match play say he is more the competent as a 7.

Regarding Wood as 8, i agree not his best position but his sheer workrate/aggression and competiveness allows him to compete against Falateau i do NOT expect to see wood out played as Wood is a hell of a competitor it take a very special Falateua to overshadow him,and what i have seen he doesn't have so i can say its even at number 8.

 

[psychic duck]

lay off Lawes, he is a quality player. At international level he isn't a world class 6 but on form he is a world class lock. I really don't see whats so special about AWJ if i am honest. A regular playing Lawes can do everything AWJ can do AND MORE he is faster/harder tackler/better lineout stealer probably just lacks match game experience and smarts he can aquire when playing regularly at international level. I see him in the premiership week in and week out and the respect he has in that league is for all to see. As lancaster said he is probably the most feared tackling 2nd row in the premiership.

No. Lawes makes a few big hits, but misses a few tackles as well as we saw against France. Hence why the experiment at 6 has been canned. Alun-Wyn Jones is a quality workhorse of a player, who has been consistent with few dips in form over several years and is Wales' best lock. Lawes may hit harder, but AWJ doesn't fall off tackles. Also AWJ plays a bigger presence at the breakdown than Lawes so he can't offer everything as good as AWJ can. If you can't see why AWJ is good, I guess you just pay attention to big hits and ignore the missed tackles and all the work AWJ gets through.

regarding Robshaw and Tips well i am choosing RObshaw the work rate and tackling ability Tips cannot compete against for a full 80mins. People forget robshaw plays number 7 for a few years its not like he just plays for england as a number 7, for the Quins in europe if he was rubbish don't you think he would of moved to 6? the stats and his match play say he is more the competent as a 7.

Rubbish. Tipuric hasn't had opportunities at international because he is in the same position as another good player who was up until recently the captain. He is one of the fittest 7's there is and speed of support to runners and rucks is immense, and he is never ever ever taken off at the Ospreys.

 

[mstar]

Duck,

Lawes hasn't had the international experience to be compared to AWJ. Sure he gets through a lot of work and at the breakdown he is more accomplished but i really don't see anything else what Lawes with time cannot do. Lawes has more physical attributes which AWJ cannot even compete with. It be more valid to compare Launchbury to AWJ and i would choose JL any day. Not sure are you saying AWJ never misses tackles?

regarding tips i like him but i just think Robshaw has a little extra which is backed up by stats not my opinion or my likes or dislikes -just whats on record and stats.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Lawes doesn't usually miss tackles, being played at 6 and being hyped up before the game seemingly led to him going for tackles he wouldn't normally go for.
What's impressive about his big hits is that he's very efficient with them, he knows when they're on and when they aren't. And when they are, he absolutely munches people.
What AWJ does that impresses me is he hits pretty much every ruck he possibly can. Much in the same way Robshaw isn't necessarily the best tackler in the world, but he makes loads of them.
AWJ is very well rounded too. Lawes is probably better in the lineout though, and a bit quicker. I'd say it's fairly even in terms of contribution overall, if the rest of the team is balanced both players are fantastic.

 

[dullonien]

Lawes hasn't delivered on his potential at international level. Yes he hits hard, but he also misses tackles as Duck has pointed out. I'd take Alun-Wyn ahead of Lawes every day of the week. Physical attributes isn't everything, as SA fans have found out with Spies. A player doesn't accumulate 69 caps by the age of 27 without being an incredibly good player.

Also as pointed out by j'nuh, Robshaw basically plays a 6's role at 7. That doesn't make him a better 7 than Tipuric.

 

[Peat]

The coaching staff said after the game they were happy with Lawes missing a couple of rush tackles as long as he was out there hunting for hits and putting the attack under pressure. Nobody wants to be going around a rugby pitch wondering if Courtney Lawes is about to come flying out of the line and blindside them. It was a big part of Sarries when Farrell was there as well - high line speed, lots of people throwing themselves at marginal tackles, that sort of thing - high missed tackle counts, low tries conceded. He's under instructions, and doesn't miss that many for Northampton.

 

[j'nuh]

True, but wait until England play an intelligent backline. It'll rip those tactics to shreds. Too high a line speed = vulnerable to chips, grubbers, cross-fields, running at gaps from worked angles, dummy runners etc. Good vs. teams with little imagination, but would rather the drift defense vs. a fully-fit/form Aus.

 

[ratsapprentice]

You're basing him being a habitual tackle-misser based on one game where he was out of position.
Look at his stats, his tackle count isn't all that high, and his tackles missed is very low in relation to it.
He doesn't make that many, they are just very hard when he does.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

True, but wait until England play an intelligent backline. It'll rip those tactics to shreds. Too high a line speed = vulnerable to chips, grubbers, cross-fields, running at gaps from worked angles, dummy runners etc. Good vs. teams with little imagination, but would rather the drift defense vs. a fully-fit/form Aus.

True enough, but with two FBs and Youngs (an exceptional sweeper, for all his faults) we're fairly well defended for that eventuality.

 

[Peat]

True, but wait until England play an intelligent backline. It'll rip those tactics to shreds. Too high a line speed = vulnerable to chips, grubbers, cross-fields, running at gaps from worked angles, dummy runners etc. Good vs. teams with little imagination, but would rather the drift defense vs. a fully-fit/form Aus.

Besides the point - the point is those defensive tactics are what we are using and provide context to Lawes' behaviour, not whether they're any good.

edit: Which I will muse on my way to the fried chicken shop, like the dedicated athlete I am. However, one tiny point - the high line speed to which I referred is not always universal across the whole team and on this point, I should have talked about shooters really. Which is a whole different ball game.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

edit: Which I will muse on my way to the fried chicken shop, like the dedicated athlete I am.

Go well. I've been noticing recently how every fried chicken shop manages to be called something different, even though in theory the adjectives which can be applied to 'fried chicken' should be fairly few... I guess that's north east London for you.

Back to rugby...has anybody else noticed how Mke Brown tries to get involved and steal ball at every breakdown? The man seems to think he's Ugo Monye...

 

[Largejanner]

All very interesting these player by player comparisons and analysis of the match-ups involved, but this will be a regulation England win I`m afraid.
This England team finally has the appropriate 'big nation' attitude and no doubt the pragmatic game plan to nulify Wales and to go on and win this.
Much gnashing of teeth in the Principality come Saturday evening I feel.

 

[smb64]

I do think comparing the players on individual ability - most of the Wales player make the cut compared to their English counterparts. However if you look at England's success and more impressive performances e.g against NZ Scotland and Ireland, its hard to pick out individual players that really impacted upon the win, its Eng's ability to play well as a collective, particularly defensively and to secure quick ball that's seeing them meet success.

Though whether they play better as a team then Wales do, we're have to wait and see I guess.