Wales vs England - 13/08/2011 - RWC Warm Up

[Thingimubob]

Think Gatland said it's mainly causing him pain at night when he's trying to sleep more than during training and stuff.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Think Gatland said it's mainly causing him pain at night when he's trying to sleep more than during training and stuff.

From what I have heard its also when he's training.

 

[Draggs]

Think Gatland said it's mainly causing him pain at night when he's trying to sleep more than during training and stuff.

Solution, have Matthew room with one of the nippers in NZ so they can keep him up all night.
Ken Owens and Richard to play v Argentina I hope.

 

[Izzoard]

Interesting point
Maybe him and Foden share the role of fullback?
Foden often does crop up in attack, perhaps the England management have realised that Cueto isn't as spritely as he once was and get Foden involved more in the setplays than him because of that.

It could well be some kind of shared responsibility, adds to defence, in which Cueto is very handy and he has provided some very nice field position from under high ball. The problem is that it's limiting attack (but everything has a + and -). Similar to Tindle, who gets a lot of critisism but you remember the Ireland 6N game? We we blown away by the ferociousness of the Irish, they exposed a naive team, Tindle was not present and I cannot help but feel that he's one of the old heads who could have brought some composure to our backs and their defence. MJ is himself and old head and understands that while young heads have few doubts in their ability to attack (remember "that Ashton try" against the Wallabies?), this self-belief is easily rattled when persistently on the back foot. Which is what Ireland set out to do, preventing Englands attacking weopons from being realised.

Overall I think MJ's strategy is good. One eye on doing well in the present, the other on the coming years, where England will have a realistic chance of being a top 3 team again.

 

[Aout]

And after watching last Saturday game, who should be the starting fly half for England during the RWC ?

 

[psychic duck]

And after watching last Saturday game, who should be the starting fly half for England during the RWC ?

I know you Aout are a big fan of Jonny Wilkinson and JW did have a very good game against Wales last Saturday, but Toby Flood has had a very good 2010/11 international season and doesn't deserve to be dropped

Flood is part of a settled side who won the 6 Nations there is no need to change drastically with the England side that won the 6 Nations yet, and Wilkinson did play in the 2010 6 Nations and played in a faltering backline which kicked away countless amounts of possession whilst beating Italy (17-12), was ineffectual against Ireland and hardly troubled the Irish defence despite dominating possession, and drew to Scotland in a dreadful match

when Flood came into the side, England beat Australia in probably their best performance since 2007 and Flood played well that day, and then won the 6 Nations

it is close between Wilkinson and Flood, but far too many people are anti-Flood at the minute, so I'm presenting the other side of the argument supporting Flood

 

[cyRil]

And after watching last Saturday game, who should be the starting fly half for England during the RWC ?

Wilkinson. Without question.

 

[JW.]

If Flood can play and let England play like they did against Australia in the Autumn then Flood without a question, but the RWC isn't just another simple test match they are tight games not known for fluency. And I think Flood will struggle then. Wilko in the WC all the way!

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

how can you drop flood when, as psychic duck pointed out, he was a key player in our winnign the six natiosn for the first time since before the 2003 world cup? Also his understanding of youngs from leicester and even with tuilagi could prove decisive. I am 90% sure MJ will be sticking with flood and rightfully so.

 

[Aout]

@Psychic Duck

Don't get me wrong, I am not spitting on Flood. I just find that what is happening to Wilko is completely unfair.He has done so much for England, yet English have already forgetten him, because until the 2011 6 nations English newspapers swore only by Flood since he had a good season with Northampton. In the meantime, Wilko was just outstanding with Toulon, but eh, Toulon is a French city which is quite far from England, so who cares about what is happening there ?

Flood won his ticket for the final stages of H cup by defeating Cardiff, Castres (and we all know how Castres sucks in Hcup) and Edinburgh while Wilko beat the London Irishs, the Munster and the Ospreys. But once again, who cared about that ? It happened in a far city, South East of France, this was way too far from England to bother the Englishs. They had Flood.

Then came the 6 nations, I remember a newspaper which had on his main page "Flood, the jewel of the crown" (lol). Wilko didn't even exist in the mind of English people at that time (remember TRF, there was Flood, Sexton, and then the rest of Europe).
But Flood completely failed. He had some good games against "small" countries, but he did nothing against Europe "top teams" (France & Ireland. No offenses to Welshs but they had a poor 6 nations).

I can understand that people like the idea of having a young fly half, the idea that he plays in England for an English club, but should players be selected because of their age or where they play (especially for a world cup). If you want to win the world cup, you want to have the best fly half available. And I'd be very interested to know what are the arguments that make you pick up Flood over Wilko.

Wilkinson is not only a foot and a guy that has a good defence. He has a great vision of the game, he knows when to play with forwards (and when he got to kick the ball/play with backs because they need to recover from an intensive effort), when to attack the line (and how to, he can offload the ball just like SBW), he's a strong runner despite his age (he's only 32) and has outstanding passing skills.

This guy knows how to play the game, and how to win it. It would be one of the most unfair moment of his career if he spends his world cup on the bench. And to be very honest, Flood is a little bit carried by Youngs (who's probably Europe best scrum-half). Flood without Youngs is nowhere near Flood with Youngs.

(God I can't edit my post, sorry for the mistakes)

 

[Izzoard]

And after watching last Saturday game, who should be the starting fly half for England during the RWC ?

We'll know more after this next game. But Flood missfired pretty bady in the Cup final as I remember, I wonder if he's a consistent big-game player. The Australian wins were friendlies and indeed he played very well. Wilco however has demonstrated that he is a big-game player.

It's one of those "good problems".

I'm edging towards Wilko, his time in France has served him well. I do like the Flood / Youngs combo though, they seem to work well together and Youngs should be the preferred scrum half.

 

[psychic duck]

Don't get me wrong, I am not spitting on Flood. I just find that what is happening to Wilko is completely unfair.He has done so much for England, yet English have already forgetten him, because until the 2011 6 nations English newspapers swore only by Flood since he had a good season with Northampton. In the meantime, Wilko was just outstanding with Toulon, but eh, Toulon is a French city which is quite far from England, so who cares about what is happening there ?

Flood won his ticket for the final stages of H cup by defeating Cardiff, Castres (and we all know how Castres sucks in Hcup) and Edinburgh while Wilko beat the London Irishs, the Munster and the Ospreys. But once again, who cared about that ? It happened in a far city, South East of France, this was way too far from England to bother the Englishs. They had Flood.

Then came the 6 nations, I remember a newspaper which had on his main page "Flood, the jewel of the crown" (lol). Wilko didn't even exist in the mind of English people at that time (remember TRF, there was Flood, Sexton, and then the rest of Europe).
But Flood completely failed. He had some good games against "small" countries, but he did nothing against Europe "top teams" (France & Ireland. No offenses to Welshs but they had a poor 6 nations).

I can understand that people like the idea of having a young fly half, the idea that he plays in England for an English club, but should players be selected because of their age or where they play (especially for a world cup). If you want to win the world cup, you want to have the best fly half available. And I'd be very interested to know what are the arguments that make you pick up Flood over Wilko.

Wilkinson is not only a foot and a guy that has a good defence. He has a great vision of the game, he knows when to play with forwards (and when he got to kick the ball/play with backs because they need to recover from an intensive effort), when to attack the line (and how to, he can offload the ball just like SBW), he's a strong runner despite his age (he's only 32) and has outstanding passing skills.

This guy knows how to play the game, and how to win it. It would be one of the most unfair moment of his career if he spends his world cup on the bench. And to be very honest, Flood is a little bit carried by Youngs (who's probably Europe best scrum-half). Flood without Youngs is nowhere near Flood with Youngs.

(God I can't edit my post, sorry for the mistakes)

was the mistake that you couldn't edit is that Flood doesn't play for Northampton?

I don't think Jonny Wilkinson has been forgotten at all so I disagree there, he gets loads of media coverage to say English fans just forgot about him I think is incorrect, that media coverage isn't much about his form for Toulon though if that's your point, although you can't blame English fans for knowing more and talking more about the players they watch more regularly, did the French media talk much about how Chabal, Castaignede, Ibañez played in England?

I don't understand what you mean by "small countries", Flood was brilliant against Australia in November, however he and Youngs did fade along with England's dominance throughout the 6 Nations, and he didn't have a good game in the Premiership final

I don't remember people saying there was Flood, Sexton and then the rest of Europe either, I do think Trinh-Duc is underrated in the UK however (Hook and O'Gara overrated)

there are strong arguments to select Flood and Wilkinson at 10, as JW. pointed out Wilkinson is probably the best at drop goals I've ever seen and has experience of getting England through tight knockout type of matches, I've not seen SBW offloads however (exaggeration) but one has to remember that Wilkinson played in the 2010 6 Nations and was part of an England backline that was very poor that tournament and Flood came in and England developed a more successful settled side which there is no reason to change radically (although it's not a bad idea to radically change the centre combination)

I don't see your point about Flood + Youngs either, it doesn't matter because Youngs will start for sure and also I haven't seen enough of Flood without Youngs over the last two seasons to make a comment on how he plays without him

 

[Izzoard]

@Aout. The British press are very fickle, they love building people up, only slightly less than they enjoy bringing them down.

All I can say is in my local pub in the NL, when Jonny walks on the pitch fans from the opposition always sag their heads a little.

You remember the 2011 Fr/Eng game when he walked on to take an immediate penalty, near the half way and side lines? There was a French guy next to me, explaining the game to a Dutchie, Wilko walked on, the conversation was as follows:


Dutchie: Ah, he can't kick this, not from there.
Frenchie: It is Jonny Wilkinson, he never miss.
Dutchie: Surely not from that distance and angle...
Frenchie: *Hangs head a little* He never miss.


I felt sorry for him, but this is the feeling that fans and players have about this guy. Plus his time now at Toulon has helped him to become a far more rounded player, as demonstrated last WE.

I'm not bashing Flood, I like him but he's gonna have to play the game of his life this WE. He's going to have to bring somethign different than Wilko and what he has is a good ability to break the gainline with ball in hand. Of course, he's also going to have to play a good control/strategic/tactical/kicking game also. No pressure Toby ;-)

And after watching last Saturday game, who should be the starting fly half for England during the RWC ?

In a world cup? I'll go with Wilko. Old heads win WC's, I thought I heard the average age of a winning team is 30+. He has too much "been there, done that" to ignore.

But - tomorrow is important.

it is close between Wilkinson and Flood, but far too many people are anti-Flood at the minute, so I'm presenting the other side of the argument supporting Flood

Are people really "anti" Flood? I'm not sure, he's an excellent player.

If Flood can play and let England play like they did against Australia in the Autumn then Flood without a question, but the RWC isn't just another simple test match they are tight games not known for fluency. And I think Flood will struggle then. Wilko in the WC all the way!

Agreed. Free flowing rugby isn't going to help a team progress, experience will. There'll be small margins with big payoff's / consequences.

Where are you BTW in NL? I'll be in Den Haag with mates for tomorrows game ;-)

how can you drop flood when, as psychic duck pointed out, he was a key player in our winnign the six natiosn for the first time since before the 2003 world cup? Also his understanding of youngs from leicester and even with tuilagi could prove decisive. I am 90% sure MJ will be sticking with flood and rightfully so.

The only team to turn up against England was Ireland and they were blown away in a green rage. They were rattled and fell apart, the likes of Wilko and Tindle would have helped the steadyness of the team.

 

[Aout]

was the mistake that you couldn't edit is that Flood doesn't play for Northampton?

Fair enough, tho my argument still stands, as Leicester had two weak team in its pool (An italian one and the scarlets)

I don't think Jonny Wilkinson has been forgotten at all so I disagree there, he gets loads of media coverage to say English fans just forgot about him I think is incorrect, that media coverage isn't much about his form for Toulon though if that's your point, although you can't blame English fans for knowing more and talking more about the players they watch more regularly, did the French media talk much about how Chabal, Castaignede, Ibañez played in England?

The difference is that England owes a world cup to Wilkinson (although he was not the only one in the squad, I agree). And yes my point was about Wilko's outstanding form in Toulon, not about the last house he bought somewhere in the Midlands.
It was just a feeling once again, but when Michalak left for South Africa, we has quite regular updates about his form/how he performed. I just feel there's not the same coverage about Wilko here in England.

I don't understand what you mean by "small countries", Flood was brilliant against Australia in November, however he and Youngs did fade along with England's dominance throughout the 6 Nations, and he didn't have a good game in the Premiership final

Well there are two groups at the moment in Europe. You got teams that have the potential to do something in the World Cup (France, Ireland, England) and you got the other ones (Wales, Scotland, Italy). I mean Wales certainly have the potential to do something, but they didn't show it over the last couple of years.
I was talking about England struggling against France and losing against Ireland, and Flood being bad against both teams.

I don't remember people saying there was Flood, Sexton and then the rest of Europe either, I do think Trinh-Duc is underrated in the UK however (Hook and O'Gara overrated)

Before this year six nations there was a huge euphoria about Flood in England. He was the next Daniel Carter.

there are strong arguments to select Flood and Wilkinson at 10, as JW. pointed out Wilkinson is probably the best at drop goals I've ever seen and has experience of getting England through tight knockout type of matches, I've not seen SBW offloads however (exaggeration) but one has to remember that Wilkinson played in the 2010 6 Nations and was part of an England backline that was very poor that tournament and Flood came in and England developed a more successful settled side which there is no reason to change radically (although it's not a bad idea to radically change the centre combination)[/QUOTE

Sure I was exagerating about SBW offloads, but if you've watched some Toulon Top14 and H-cup, you know what I'm talking about. He's not only a kicker, he can carry the ball very well. People think about Wilko as a guy who can kick and defend well. He's much more than that.
And what you say is correct about his poor form in the 2010 tournament, but it is not true anymore. Since his move to Toulon, he's not the same player anymore.

 

[Izzoard]

Probably a little too much debate over 10 in general. How about Lawes return? Win the breakdown and get fast ball, Flood should then be able to make use of the backs.

MJ on Lawes:

Someone said the other day, "When he's playing, when he's hitting, you can hear it",' said the manager.

'When he trains, when he hits them, there's a distinctive noise.'

Music to my ears ;-)

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I reckon Flood will start vs Ireland, and that will determine whether or not he's our starting 10
His two worst games of recent times have been vs the Irish (Ireland and Leinster) and both in the Aviva, so going up against Ireland in the Aviva will whether he's got over his no-confidence-patch



I'm really looking forward to seeing Lawes back on the pitch

 

[TrueSlawter]

Fair enough, tho my argument still stands, as Leicester had two weak team in its pool (An italian one and the scarlets)

Scarlets are far from a weak team, they were 2nd in the Magners for most of the season with a pretty young team.

On wilko v flood they shoul rotate a bit like sexton and o'gara do, start flood and bring on wilko.

 

[Izzoard]

I reckon Flood will start vs Ireland, and that will determine whether or not he's our starting 10
His two worst games of recent times have been vs the Irish (Ireland and Leinster) and both in the Aviva, so going up against Ireland in the Aviva will whether he's got over his no-confidence-patch



I'm really looking forward to seeing Lawes back on the pitch

I hope Flood has a bee in his bonet about that last Irish game! But a number of other players *coughs* Ashton, should have points to prove also - Ashton allowed himself to be bullied in that game, ROG smirked in an incident with him, it told the story of the entire game for me.

 

[Ozzay]

Wilkos experience will be invaluable in the knockout stages, i'm not sure if Flood could handle the pressure!

Floods just got that eye for a gap and is quicker than Wilko, England are in good shape at 10 for the WC tho.

I was very impressed with Wilko last weekend though, aint seen him play like that for awhile

 

[DuncTheDoodle]

Agreed. Free flowing rugby isn't going to help a team progress, experience will.

Really? Scoring tries certainly helps. Standing beneath the posts and being able to remember the stench of defeat from before doesn't.