[2018 Super Rugby] Round 14: 18-19 May 2018

[TRF_heineken]

I've added the Teams to the OP, when the others are announced, I will add them too.

Interesting move by the Bulls. Nyakane moves to loosehead, Pollard moves to 12 and Libbok slots in at 10. Seems like the Bulls are going to play a bit more of a creative style...

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

But you being worrying about it implies some sort of an underlying theory, otherwise i do not understand your point.
What is that theory? That jaguares somehow has enough leverage to out-muscle bulls and SARU at SANZAAR to purposefully appoint a ref that will favour us, after being reffed by non Argentine, non-spanish speaking refs for 41 consecutive games in 3 seasons?

Sounds like a bit of a stretch.

 

[TRF_heineken]

But you being worrying about it implies some sort of an underlying theory, otherwise i do not understand your point.
What is that theory? That jaguares somehow has enough leverage to out-muscle bulls and SARU at SANZAAR to purposefully appoint a ref that will favour us, after being reffed by non Argentine, non-spanish speaking refs for 41 consecutive games in 3 seasons?

Sounds like a bit of a stretch.

No, I think you are missing the point based on what happened the past few weeks with regard to other referees of the same nationality in charge of matches where they helped the teams of their own nationality to win.

There has been an outcry, especially from SA teams, Coaches and Pundits. And this move by SANZAAR just makes everyone wonder what exactly is going on? And why this sort of influential decision on a match is done perhaps to the detriment of a South African team.

 

[SomeOke]

Pollard at 12, Libbock at 10, that could bring some serious heat, very exciting set up. Odendaal is the biggest bum in that side and without him the backline looks very deadly. Probably a slight defensive downgrade though.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

No, I think you are missing the point based on what happened the past few weeks with regard to other referees of the same nationality in charge of matches where they helped the teams of their own nationality to win.

There has been an outcry, especially from SA teams, Coaches and Pundits. And this move by SANZAAR just makes everyone wonder what exactly is going on? And why this sort of influential decision on a match is done perhaps to the detriment of a South African team.

I don't think i am missing the point. I just find the insinuation ridiculous, considering who's it coming from, who's being directed at and specially considering there's not a shred of evidence to support it given that an argentine team has never been refed by an argentine ref, ever.
It's coming from some who have benefited from this in the past.
It's directed at a team who's never benefited from this in the past AND has been harmed by it.

And the hypocrisy, good bloody lord. Where were those coaches and pundits when, just as an example, Jaco refed our games against the Lions and Stormers this season?
Either something is unfair/biased all the time to everyone or it's not. You can't have it both ways.

You wanna complain about a NZ ref if a RSA team plays a NZ team? Fine, i get it.
But against the Jaguares, about the ref?
If you like conspiracy theories you should also consider this year we've got an actual shot of qualifying. That's an interesting twist.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Btw, Jaguares' line up

 

[bakakumon]

The venue for the match between Sunwolves and Stormers is Mong Kok Stadium to be exact.
Not the one situated for the annual Hong Kong Sevens.
Looking forward to the first Super Rugby match here.

 

[unrated]

I don't think i am missing the point. I just find the insinuation ridiculous, considering who's it coming from, who's being directed at and specially considering there's not a shred of evidence to support it given that an argentine team has never been refed by an argentine ref, ever.
It's coming from some who have benefited from this in the past.
It's directed at a team who's never benefited from this in the past AND has been harmed by it.

And the hypocrisy, good bloody lord. Where were those coaches and pundits when, just as an example, Jaco refed our games against the Lions and Stormers this season?
Either something is unfair/biased all the time to everyone or it's not. You can't have it both ways.

You wanna complain about a NZ ref if a RSA team plays a NZ team? Fine, i get it.
But against the Jaguares, about the ref?
If you like conspiracy theories you should also consider this year we've got an actual shot of qualifying. That's an interesting twist.

The only conspiracy around is you trying to fabricate a hypothetical plot against the Jaguares.
I never said it's the doing of the Jags ( The sudden changing of the ref - to be clear). I know that the Jags are not responsible for appointing refs, that should be obvious to everyone.
The only thing i really wanted to highlight and if you go and read my post again you will understand, i was merely asking if anyone else found it suspicious that the ref was suddenly changed before this game.

The issue of neutral referees is not an argument that i want to get involved in, but the sudden firing of a ref and replacing him (Who happens to be Argentinian) is suspicious! Don't you find that suspicious? If they appointed him at the beginning of the season like the rest of the refs then fine but it came to my attention that the ref was removed a WEEK BEFORE the game. So again i'm not blaming anyone, not the Argentinians nor the Jags if anything it is SANZAAR for creating this scenario.
And i don't think that the Bulls will be biased by this ref never said so, i do not know him but one would expect a professional ref to be fair, not necessarily because he want to portray an ethical image of himself but because they work for an employer who will conduct a performance review on them.

I think what happened here was you misread the situation and jumped to a conclusion that people are complaining about the ref not being neutral, which is an interesting topic but not the one intended.

On this last comment you made:
"If you like conspiracy theories you should also consider this year we've got an actual shot of qualifying. That's an interesting twist"

I think i have been more optimistic about the Jags progress in Super rugby than you! I kept on saying they just need time and the combination between the Jags and the national team will make them a very powerful team. So the Jags being in contention for a playoff spot is not a twist at least not for me, i expected it. It's not a conspiracy theory its an empirical theory.


The South African/Argentinian conference is getting intense! i like the rivalry that is brewing

 

[unrated]

The venue for the match between Sunwolves and Stormers is Mong Kok Stadium to be exact.
Not the one situated for the annual Hong Kong Sevens.
Looking forward to the first Super Rugby match here.

That would be better as it would be easier to fill up this stadium than that huge Sevens stadium.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

The only conspiracy around is you trying to fabricate a hypothetical plot against the Jaguares.
I never said it's the doing of the Jags ( The sudden changing of the ref - to be clear). I know that the Jags are not responsible for appointing refs, that should be obvious to everyone.
The only thing i really wanted to highlight and if you go and read my post again you will understand, i was merely asking if anyone else found it suspicious that the ref was suddenly changed before this game.

OK, first, apologies if i misread your post/argument. Now help me out because i asked you a question and i can't find your answer. You said that the sudden replacement a week before the game was suspicious. My question is pretty straightforward: suspicious towards what, exactly?

It's not a conspiracy theory its an empirical theory.

Absolutely not. The fact that they changed the ref is factual therefore empirical. Whether that is in any way could affect the outcome is 100% speculative.

This is quite simple: you are suspicious, because something could happen. What is that "something", concretely and specifically?

 

[TRF_heineken]

OK, first, apologies if i misread your post/argument. Now help me out because i asked you a question and i can't find your answer. You said that the sudden replacement a week before the game was suspicious. My question is pretty straightforward: suspicious towards what, exactly?


Absolutely not. The fact that they changed the ref is factual therefore empirical. Whether that is in any way could affect the outcome is 100% speculative.

This is quite simple: you are suspicious, because something could happen. What is that "something", concretely and specifically?

Okay, let's perhaps break it down. We're not pointing fingers at the Jaguares, not Argentinian Rugby. We're pointing fingers at SANZAAR.
Our suspicions are that SANZAAR are trying to use referees to have an influence on the game to the detriment of certain teams.

This last change of appointment raises that suspicion, because the original referee appointed, doesn't have an injury or any illness that prevents him from doing his job. So the question is why was he then replaced all of a sudden?

This happened a day after the Stormers filed an official complaint with SANZAAR.

And I'm beginning to wonder if all these articles about SA leaving Super Rugby is perhaps the doing of someone at SANZAAR...

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

So, your working theory is that SANZAAR, of which SARU is part of, wants to influence the game via referee appointments to the detriment of certain teams, the bulls being one of them?
Is my understanding of your argument correct?

 

[SomeOke]

So, your working theory is that SANZAAR, of which SARU is part of, wants to influence the game via referee appointments to the detriment of certain teams, the bulls being one of them?
Is my understanding of your argument correct?

I think they're saying SANZAAR more thinks the Jaguares getting through would be better for the game, rather than detrimental for the Bulls.

I'll give anyone the benefit of the doubt though, no point in complaining about the ref until we've seen the game.

 

[bakakumon]

That would be better as it would be easier to fill up this stadium than that huge Sevens stadium.

True, the atmosphere would be much more compact as the seats are very close to the pitch.

 

[Gena_ZA]

I disagree with most on this ref replacement.
The guy replaced is not up to standard and replaced by a better ref.
SANZAR under huge pressure because of sub-standard refereeing lately, I think they want to limit more damage and/or apply some damage control
The replacement ref is not great either, so sadly refereeing is simply not very good at present

Don't read this with any intention to make assumptions, theories blah blah out of it

Simply the way I see it

 

[TRF_heineken]

So, your working theory is that SANZAAR, of which SARU is part of, wants to influence the game via referee appointments to the detriment of certain teams, the bulls being one of them?
Is my understanding of your argument correct?

That is one way of looking at it I guess. But the Argentina Rugby is also part of SANZAAR, so you could argue the other part of the coin as well in how you are stating it.

But like @Gena_ZA is also saying, that it might be damage control to some extent.

The issue here is not the Jaguares, so let's put that to rest, the issue is SANZAAR and the manner in which they are appointing referees... The Bulls got the short end of the stick in at least 2 matches where NZ referee was in charge (Glen Jackson), I guess, they draw the line at 3...

But yeah, the standard of refereeing this year has been dreadful.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Ok, i dont want to generalize but given that there are several of you posting from the same side, i have to mention there's quite a leap from "bad refereeing" to "we want Jaguares to go through" as it's been suggested. These are completely different problems that require completely different solutions.

The Bulls got the short end of the stick in at least 2 matches where NZ referee was in charge (Glen Jackson), I guess, they draw the line at 3...

This is the kind of argument i was referring to. I can understand how that bothers you. I try to put myself in your shoes for a split second, just out of intellectual curiosity. I like to do that. Helps me understand your point of view. It's called empathy.
Now imagine for a second: how you'd feel if instead of 3, that number was 41. Not 3, not 5, not 10, not 20, not 30. Fourty-one. That's how many games we've played without an Argentine ref.

Do you see how those sort of comments come across? It's an honest question. You are complaining (for the lack of a better word) about being reffed 3 times on a row by non South African referees when your opponent hasn't been reffed once in 41 games by an Argentine ref. Do you see the problem or am i too cryptic?

 

[argie]

I have no problem with Jaco Peyper be refereing us again, and again, and again until the end of the times. The refs that SANZAAR have named aren´t a reason to be crying if a defeat occurs. I will not open the umbrella ahead of time.
I have a lot of confidence in the Jags style.

 

[Brigantine]

Looks like the Reds really bounced back from last week

 

[GordoMac]

Looks like the Reds really bounced back from last week

Been better if Ben O'keefe hadn't been refereeing the game mind you, after his atrocious game the previous week when he gifted the Crusaders a game against the Tahs they give him another home game reffing the Hurricanes.... His interpretations of the scrum and breakdown make me shout at the TV more than any other ref... I believe the standard of reffing is all in all pretty good but he is terrible.....