Wales - Six Nations 2012

[Draggs]

Had to wait for the New Year before I posted about the Six Nations, so here we go!
Just curious as to what people think the Welsh squad will be. Had a few ideas so far, any suggestions?
Props (6): Scott Andrews, Ryan Bevington, Paul James, Gethin Jenkins, Adam Jones, Craig Mitchell
Hooker (3): Huw Bennett, Ken Owens, Matthew Rees
Second Row (4): Bradley Davies, Ian Evans, Dominic Day, Alun Wyn Jones
Back Row (7): Toby Faletau, Ryan Jones, Dan Lydiate, Aaron Shingler, Justin Tipuric, Sam Warburton
Scrum Half (3): Gareth Davies, Mike Phillips, Lloyd Williams
Outside Half (2): James Hook, Rhys Priestland
Wing (2): Alex Cuthbert, George North
Centre (4): Jonathan Davies, Gavin Henson, Jamie Roberts, Scott Williams
Fullback (3): Lee Byrne, Leigh Halfpenny, Liam Williams

Wider Training Squad: Rhodri Jones, John Yapp; Lloyd Burns, Richard Hibbard; Lou Reed; Rob McCusker, Josh Turnbull; Rhys Webb; Dan Biggar/Jason Tovey; Chris Czekaj/Will Harries; Ashley Beck; Daniel Evans/Tom Prydie
Rather short at Outside Half and Wing, but I wanted to avoid off form players like Biggar and Tovey, while Harries and Prydie are both returning from injury and have little regional rugby under their belts.
The Wider Training Squad is up for debate, I just listed players that I thought could benefit from experience with the first XV.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Prydie may well get a slot in the wider training camp due to the act he has been quite active with the 7s and been training under the Welsh fitness coaches at the center of excellence.

 

[welshglory]

I don't think Scott Andrews should be in. He's a liability and needs to earn his spot. We don't have many options but maybe Rhys Thomas or... Aaron Jarvis? Anyone but Scott Andrews, at least not until the summer or autumn internationals.
I think Hibbard should be in for Bennett because he starts ahead of him at the Ospreys and would have been at the world cup were it not for injury. Or for Ken Owens i don't mind.
I agree with the lock picks but Alun-Wyn is injured for the mean time and will probably only be available for the last few games with no match fitness. Ian Evans could also be ruled out so we could see Lou Reed or the experienced duo of Ian Gough and Deiniol Jones included.
If Ben Morgan chooses Wales then id have him in for Aaron Shingler if he doesn't then id have Turnbull or McCusker in.
At scrum half Gareth Davies has been playing well and i'd be tempted to have him and Rhys Webb in instead of Lloyd Williams who hasn't been playing that well but alas i'd have Webb and Williams as my backups. If Peel can be released i'd really like to see him involved.
Hook and Priestland sounds about right to me although we could see Stephen Jones included to add some experience.
I agree with the rest of the backs, although i really think that Beck should be in for Scott Williams who hasn't playing that great.
I also don't think Prydie should be included in the squad in any form atm. With Tommy Bowe away with Ireland he could get some gain time for the O's which would be better for him.

 

[Draggs]

I don't rate Andrews either, but we really have no other tighthead options, unless we look further abroad (Eifion?).
Jo Rees has looked like a good one from what I have seen, hopefully he gets further opportunities with the Ospreys.
Rhodri Jones is another, but the Scarlets need to decide which side of the scrum he belongs.

Disagree with Hibbard over Bennett. Hibbard looks out of shape, while Bennett's most recent performances with Wales have been decent.

Hopefully Ianto will be fit, he looked good against Australia. I'd go with Dominic Day over Lou Reed based the last few matches, but both could be included. Welch is also WQ now, not sure how long he is out with injury. I think Gatland would rather look into some of the younger players than Gough or Jones, but I don't think Ian would let us down.

Regarding Shingler/Turnbull/McCusker, Shingler has looked very good lately and is a different type of blindside than Lydiate. Turnbull is just back from injury, but I wouldn't be opposed to McCusker's inclusion.

Davies has been in good form, while Webb is very inconsistent. I don't think Lloyd has been that bad, his positives certainly outweight his negatives. I have no problem with Richie Rees, but all the coaches do, so I wouldn't expect him to be involved.

No chance Stephen Jones will be included, Gatland has stated that only those who can be involved in 2015 will be selected. Also, fair call on Prydie, he could do with some regional time, but I still think he would benefit from a few training sessions with the national side.

 

[dullonien]

I'm another that still isn't convinced with Scott Andrews. He got pushed around against Austrailia, and struggled against the Ospreys last night (although to be fair, his fellow front rowers were also poor, and were up against a formidabble O's front row). Andrews hasn't proved anything yet. He doesn't deserve to be written off, but he also doesn't deserve to be involved with Wales just yet either. I honestly think Rhodri Jones is a better scrummager, and for that reason alone (and the fact that I dislike Rhys Thomas), I'd give him some gametime in the 6 nations. On the other side of the scrum, Bevington is turning into one hell of a player imo. Just like Gethin Jenkins, his scrummaging isn't of the destructive nature, but he doesn't get pushed around either. His workrate is top notch as shown last night with some barnstorming runs and some shuddering hits. All he's really lacking is Gethins ability on the floor, but I don't know any other prop who doubles as a flanker is such a way. A ready made replacement for one of the best props Wales has ever had.

At hooker, I think Rees and Bennett are guaranteed of their spots, even though Bennett is second choice at the O's (bit odd I know). But who will get the third spot? I personally think it should be between Owens and Hibbard. Hibbard's throwing can be very dodgy, with his movement before throwing very amateurish. Owens has yet to be given a propper chance by Gatland, so for that reason, I'd go for him. The second-row is quickly becoming a bit of a problem area with our first choice pairing at the WC possibly missing the 6N (Charteris is certainly out). Ryan Jones' recent performances at lock is an encouragement at least. I wouldn't go near Deiniol Jones with a barge pole. Hopefully Ian Evans is fit, because he was finally returning to some form. One of the Scarlets boys could do a job, although none are totally convincing.

In the backrow, Faletau is looking better than ever, and Lydiate is still going strong. They're basically carying the Dragons team at the moment. Warburtons form has dropped a little for the Blues, but you just know he'll raise it when it matters, as he did for the Blues in the HC. There's quite a few young players all jostling for the last couple of spots in the backrow. Tipuric looks set to continue as Warbs' understudy. If Ben Morgan wants the spot, then I think we've gotta get him involved even if his form has dipped. Then there's the likes of Turnbull, McCusker, Shingler, Lewis Evans, Navidi etc.

In the backs, alot will depend on whether the foreign based players will be involved. Gatland has hinted that they won't, although I personally think that would be a mistake. There is plenty of choice at scrum half with youngsters like Webb and Gareth Davies in good form, along with the three that went to the WC. Peel is forever the forgotten man it seems. Outside half is another position where things are a little interesting. Priestland is no.1, but who else will be involved? Hook, Biggar, Tovey, Morgan? Both Biggar and Tovey have had some shockers recently, and I haven't seen much of Hook since his move to France. I think Morgan could very well be a dark-horse to be involved. He's a work in progress that's for sure, but that's never stopped Gatland in the past. As the pundits were saying on S4C last night, there really is no substiture for pace, and he's as fast as they come. His goal kicking is a bit up and down, but if Halfpenny's on the field (who's the best goal kicker in Wales imo) then he doesn't need to kick. I know some will shoot me down, and I almost feel the same, but if it's not Hook, then I'm not atall convinced with Biggar or Tovey at the moment either, whilst Gatland has made it quite clear that Jones won't get a look-in.

There could be some changes at centre from the WC. Beck has been in blistering form for the Ospreys. He's a great all round player, reminds me alot of Conrad Smith. I think he should be involved ahead of Jon Davies or Scott Williams. Henson is another name that has to crop-up. It's amazing how well he's slotted back into regional rugby the last two games, and that's in an unfamiliar role at fullback. I still feel he's best utilised at centre, and I'm sure Gatland will get him back involved. Overall, somehow Gatland has to pick between Roberts, Henson, Davies, Williams and Beck (and that's before considering Hook as a possible candidate in the middle). With Shane's retirement, the back three is looking a little lacking. North and Halfpenny are certainty's. Cuthbert looks odds on, although there are parts of his game that need working on (his howler when fielding a high ball last night being an example). Who else though? Liam Williams should be one imo. What about Fussell, Brew, Martyn Thomas, Czekaj, Harries, or even draft in Eli Walker or Prydie? I'm not atall sure tbh.

Edit. All in all, that rambling produces a squad that looks something like this (starting XV in bold):

Props: Gethin Jenkins, Adam Jones, Ryan Bevington, Paul James, Craig Mitchell, Rhodri Jones.
Hookers: Mattew Rees, Huw Bennett, Ken Owens.
Second Rows: Bradley Davies, Alun Wyn Jones, Ryan Jones, Ian Evans.
Backrow: Sam Warburton, Justin Tipuric, Dan Lydiate, Toby Faletau, Ben Morgan, Aaron Shingler/Josh Turnbull/Rob McCusker.

Scrum Halves: Mike Phillips, Lloyd Williams, Rhys Webb/Gareth Davies/Richie Rees.
Outside Halves: Rhys Priestland, James Hook.
Centres: Jamie Roberts, Gavin Henson, Ashley Beck, Jon Davies/Scott Williams.
Outside Backs: George North, Leigh Halfpenny, Alex Cuthbert, Liam Williams.

That's a squad of 32, although I wouldn't mind seeing a slightly larger squad to involve a few promising youngsters, such as a further back-rower (although Morgan is by no means certain, so another one of Shingler, Turnbull or McCusker might go anyway), and another centre.

I'm not entirely sure who should partner Roberts at centre. Both Scott Williams and Jon Davies' form have dipped since the WC. On form, Beck should start, but I wouldn't write Henson off just yet.

If the forign contingent of Phillips, Hook and Mitchell aren't selected, then I can see two of Webb, Davies and Rees involved at scrum half, Morgan or Biggar involved as backup 10, and Andrews involved at prop.

 

[Draggs]

I think Andrews could benefit form time around Gatland as well as Adam Jones. He is lively in the loose, and his scrummaging can be worked upon. Likewise, Bevington has tremendous potential and Gethin should help him out greatly. Rhodri Jones is being shifted between loosehead and tighthead for Llanelli and the Scarlets right now, he needs to be set into one position, or we are dealing with another John Yapp. To picks Rhys Thomas would be an awful choice, and Gatland would never do it. After seeing our scrum get tuned by the Italians in 2009, I can't bear to see him anywhere near the Welsh setup.

Rees and Bennett are nailed on in my opinion. I feel Bennett has undergone a Matthew Rees-like transformation over the past few months. I wouldn't select Hibbard, as he looks entirely out of shape. Not going to consider Lloyd Burns right now, so Ken Owens it is.

I think Ryan will cover second row from the bench, while Bradley and Ian start the first few matches. As much as it pains me to say it, we might have to call on one of the Scarlets SRs. I was hoping Cook or Hill would have had more of a chance with the Blues (or Down, before his injury) and we could have brought one of them in, for experience or whatever. I still feel that Goughy wouldn't let us down, if he was called upon.

I can't even describe how I feel for Lydiate and Faletau. Fupp knows where we would be without them! I am confident in Warburton returning to form for the Six Nations. Tipuric has been in very good form, I'd consider giving him a start if he keeps it up. Morgan is officially out, so we can go after a few other Turks backrowers. Turnbull is just back from injury, so I wouldn't select him. Like I said, Shingler offers a different type of blindside, and could be worth a shot. Not sure about Lewis Evans though. His performances have been inconsistent, and Gavin Thomas is starting over him.

I'd stay away from Rhys Webb, he is another who can't string two consistent matches together. I like the look of Gareth Davies, and I think Wayne Evans deserves a shot (only to get him out of the Dragons squad!).

While Cuthbert has made a few errors, they are ones that can be fixed. He has all the raw talent and will be a serious player soon enough. I do think they will opt for Henson at FB, unless he is given a shot at 12 while Roberts is out. It depends on how soon Tom James and Chris Czekaj return for the Blues. I wouldn't go near Fussell or Brew, Fussell is very inconsistent, and I thought the Brew experiment was finally over. I'd like to see Eli Walker involved, but he needs to get more gametime for his club.

 

[psychic duck]

Cuthbert has all the raw talent.

Draggs, I agree with nearly every word you said apart from one small thing

Cuthbert has raw size not talent, but that's it

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Draggs, I agree with nearly every word you said apart from one small thing

Cuthbert has raw size not talent, but that's it

Oh great one please enlighten us to why the boy lacks talent in your great and most humble opinion.

 

[Draggs]

Honestly, I think Cuthbert's size will be more of a problem for him. Being that big and playing on the wing will make everybody think he is another Banahan, just a big lump with no skill. Cuthbert has excellent pace and a good step, he certainly doesn't try to go over his man every time.

 

[dullonien]

I kinda see where Psychic Duck is coming from, but I feel he's being very harsh. As Draggs has said, his size automatically makes people look for a reason to critisize him (especially in Wales where we normally favour small, elusive wingers). He's big, he's quick and he knows his way to the try line, that's a good start. Not everyone can be like North or Faletau and look close to the finished article at 19 years old afterall.

There's something within me that doesn't like the idea of two huge wingers playing for Wales, but that's probably due to growing up watching and idiolising Shane Williams. All we can do is use what's available to us, and at this moment in time, North and Cuthbert are the best options if Halfpenny stays at fullback.

Draggs, the BBC are reporting that Tom James is back in contention for the Blues next match. Imo they'd be silly not to bring Henson into 12 while Robrts is out. He's a class above Hewitt, and a country mile better than Gavin Evans. Ultimately I hope Gatland doesn't opt to play Henson at 15, as I think that would be a big mistake, just as constantly shifting Hook back to fullback was a mistake.

 

[Draggs]

I kinda see where Psychic Duck is coming from, but I feel he's being very harsh. As Draggs has said, his size automatically makes people look for a reason to critisize him (especially in Wales where we normally favour small, elusive wingers). He's big, he's quick and he knows his way to the try line, that's a good start. Not everyone can be like North or Faletau and look close to the finished article at 19 years old afterall.

Yeah, I like seeing little wings dash around all the fatties and make them fall over, like Shane did for years. Still, I'll give Cuthbert a shot. Remember, they all said Shane was too small; I am not going to say Alex is too big.

Draggs, the BBC are reporting that Tom James is back in contention for the Blues next match. Imo they'd be silly not to bring Henson into 12 while Robrts is out. He's a class above Hewitt, and a country mile better than Gavin Evans. Ultimately I hope Gatland doesn't opt to play Henson at 15, as I think that would be a big mistake, just as constantly shifting Hook back to fullback was a mistake.

Good to hear, that means Halfpenny to fullback and Henson midfield. Gavlar has looked comfortable at fullback, he really looks as calm and collected as the Henson of old. I'd like to see him and Roberts get an extended period together, if Laulala does leave (I hear it is a done deal) than it is b etter for Welsh rugby. Henson and Davies could be a good pairing as well, but something about Henson and Roberts seems natural. Perhaps they will be the new Gibbs/Bateman. (Henson and Bateman, now I'd like to see them together!)

 

[psychic duck]

Honestly, I think Cuthbert's size will be more of a problem for him. Being that big and playing on the wing will make everybody think he is another Banahan, just a big lump with no skill. Cuthbert has excellent pace and a good step, he certainly doesn't try to go over his man every time.

I kinda see where Psychic Duck is coming from, but I feel he's being very harsh. As Draggs has said, his size automatically makes people look for a reason to critisize him (especially in Wales where we normally favour small, elusive wingers). He's big, he's quick and he knows his way to the try line, that's a good start. Not everyone can be like North or Faletau and look close to the finished article at 19 years old afterall.

There's something within me that doesn't like the idea of two huge wingers playing for Wales, but that's probably due to growing up watching and idiolising Shane Williams. All we can do is use what's available to us, and at this moment in time, North and Cuthbert are the best options if Halfpenny stays at fullback.

I didn't say Cuthbert wasn't good, I don't think he that talented

George North is big but has an Shane like side step is a good finisher and works hard to get into position to score tries, he does use his size well, but if he were Shane's size I think he would still be one of the best players around as his skills translate to a player of any size

whilst Cuthbert is nowhere near as agile or posseses hands like North, and uses his size in attack but if you took away his size unlike North he wouldn't be a good player

I don't think it means he's a bad player although he's not the finished article as you say, his main skill if you like is his size

it's the same with Rougerie who I think is a very good player but wouldn't be good if you took away his size

I too grew up with Shane my favourite player, but unless Harries gets back to form with the Dragons it's unlikely we'll see another of his like

 

[Draggs]

North goes missing against big opposition. He played a small part against Ireland and Australia (both matches) compared to the other outside backs.
I am going to give Alex some time to adapt to 15's, but I think he will make a good player, and if not there are some other good backups.

Will needs some time, but I think he will be able to cut it internationally. If you look at the match v Australia in 2010, he was the better wing but dropped due to his similar size of Shane.

 

[welshglory]

We didn't exactly have much of the ball against Ireland and Australia though, we were defending most of the time.

Look out for Harry Robinson at Cardiff RFC and Wales 7's if you want to see another potential 'small' winger for Wales. He's only 18 but seems to have the raw talent and ability to find space.

 

[dullonien]

When's the squad being announced? Scotland and France have already announced theirs, so can't be too far off.

Phillips looks set to be released for most of the Poland training camp, so it looks like he'll be involved with the 6 nations. Good news, considering just how good he was in the WC. I'd still like Lloyd Williams to get plenty of gametime, because his snappier service does allow the backs a little more room. His recent performances for the Blues have shown that he has things to work on though. His kicking game, ans decision making is a little iffy on occasion. His HC performances also showed what he can offer the team, with his searing pace opening up defences.

What uncapped players are people realistically expecting to see in the squad then? The main candidates are Ashley Beck, Aaron Shingler, Gareth Davies, Rhys Webb and Mattew Morgan. Morgan is probably a long shot, but then we said the same about Prydie, Kristian Phillips, Lloyd Williams and Scott Williams when they were called up. Much of his chances depends on Hook's availability (and Gatland's stubborness). I think Beck fully deserves a spot, it all depends on whether Gatland wants continuity and sticks with Scott Williams and Jon Davies, and if Henson is included and in what position. Shingler's chances have risen since Ben Morgan's decision to play for England, although there is competition from his fellow Scarlet players, McCusker and Turnbull, maybe all three will go, especially is Ryan Jones is being viewed as a second row for this 6 nations championship?

 

[psychic duck]

Shingler deserves to be in the squad, I would put him in before McCusker, Jon Thomas or Lewis Evans

Ashley Beck has looked better than Scott Williams or Jonathan Davies so far this season, so going on form he should be considered ahead, but it's up to Gatland as he may want continuity as you say

Rhys Webb can't string two good games together as Draggs says

Ryan Jones should play lock in my opinion

 

[Me 1]

North goes missing against big opposition. He played a small part against Ireland and Australia (both matches) compared to the other outside backs.
I am going to give Alex some time to adapt to 15's, but I think he will make a good player, and if not there are some other good backups.

Will needs some time, but I think he will be able to cut it internationally. If you look at the match v Australia in 2010, he was the better wing but dropped due to his similar size of Shane.

He didn't seem to go missing on his debut v. South Africa. And the reason we didn't see a huge amount of him v. Ireland is because him and Shane swapped wings and was man-marking Bowe, although he didn't have the best of games v. Australia.

 

[Draggs]

He didn't seem to go missing on his debut v. South Africa. And the reason we didn't see a huge amount of him v. Ireland is because him and Shane swapped wings and was man-marking Bowe, although he didn't have the best of games v. Australia.

Correct, but he hasn't really gone looking for the ball. His performances with the Scarlets haven't been outstanding lately. Please don't mistake this for criticism, I just think he has a way to go. He has tremendous potential and is still our best option on the wing after Halfpenny.

 

[Irishflanker]

Ok are Nicky Robinson ( is he better than Tovey/Biggar?) and Dwayne Peel still out in the cold? I would like to see peel get more international game time, I think he is a better scrum-half than Phillips...

 

[Draggs]

Nicky is better than Tovey/Biggar, but still out of the picture.
No way Peel is better than the reborn Mike Phillips, though.