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(Very) early thoughts on the 2017 Lions
- Thread starter dai_seven
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Ashton is an average winger on the wing of a very good team. He is a finisher but the clue is he needs it handed to him. If the team don't give him space, he is useless as shown by the fact he went AGES without a try for England. The likes of Roko, Watson and Nowell can all create something from nothing, Ashton can't.
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I agree. I was just throwing it out there to get the topic back on to the Lions selection.
I think Ashton does have something to offer, but not over and above other contenders.
Wing is a strange one though ... there aren't many who would be considered definite picks and some of those that are highly probable i.e. North haven't been in sparkling form.
Arguably the two best 'wingers' in the 6 Nations were a centre (Daly) and a fullback (Williams) playing out of position.
I think Ashton does have something to offer, but not over and above other contenders.
Wing is a strange one though ... there aren't many who would be considered definite picks and some of those that are highly probable i.e. North haven't been in sparkling form.
Arguably the two best 'wingers' in the 6 Nations were a centre (Daly) and a fullback (Williams) playing out of position.
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My stab at a squad: 38 players, could even have a few more in.
McGrath, Evans, Vunipola, Owens, George, Best, Furlong, Cole, Fagerson, Itjoe, Launchbury, Johnny Grey, Wyn Jones, Lawes, Warbuton, Tirpruic, Hamish Watson, Stander, Vunipola, Faleteau, Van Der Flier, Murray, Webb, Youngs, Sexton, Sam Davies, Farrell, Henshaw, Dunbar, Joesph, Ringrose, Jon Davies Liam Williams, North, Seymour, Hogg, Watson, Nowell
McGrath, Evans, Vunipola, Owens, George, Best, Furlong, Cole, Fagerson, Itjoe, Launchbury, Johnny Grey, Wyn Jones, Lawes, Warbuton, Tirpruic, Hamish Watson, Stander, Vunipola, Faleteau, Van Der Flier, Murray, Webb, Youngs, Sexton, Sam Davies, Farrell, Henshaw, Dunbar, Joesph, Ringrose, Jon Davies Liam Williams, North, Seymour, Hogg, Watson, Nowell
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If North produces more displays like he did against Ireland then it's hard to see Gatland leaving him out. If he's in form he'll play on the wing with Liam Williams on the other. I'm a massive fan of Daly and would like to see him play on the wing or at 13 if JJ isn't fit or in form.
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Presume Sam Davies is a reference to VC?
Fagerson did quite badly during the six nations, he won't go.
Dunbar probably ruled himself out of contention with some of his bad defending toward the end of the tournament.
Van De Flier would need some seriously strong performances to push past the competition, given his injuries.
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Sam Davies was a bit of a joke, I think he's a great player.... just doesn't get a proper chance. I agree about Dunbar and Flier points. But to be fair the whole of Scotland was getting ripped apart not just him in the England game. I'm a big fan of van der Flier but it's a shame he missed the 6 nations or he would definitely be in the mix.
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Vdf is a great player and he could've been in the mix if he played. A bit like Kruis and Robshaw he is probably very annoyed he didn't get to put a case forward.
In the backrow- you have how many normally? 7/8? So you're gonna have to pick a couple of guys who can play in multiple positions? Does VDF have the capacity to okay at 6/8 at international level? I'd have Vunipola, Stander, Faletau, Warburton, POM, Tipuric and Watson. SOB and Heaslip need good ends of seasons imo.
With Ashton, he's a very good winger. FOR SARACENS. When Liam Williams joins he'll be just as, if not more effective and then Ashton will go to France score a couple of tries and pundits will say he should play for England......
In the backrow- you have how many normally? 7/8? So you're gonna have to pick a couple of guys who can play in multiple positions? Does VDF have the capacity to okay at 6/8 at international level? I'd have Vunipola, Stander, Faletau, Warburton, POM, Tipuric and Watson. SOB and Heaslip need good ends of seasons imo.
With Ashton, he's a very good winger. FOR SARACENS. When Liam Williams joins he'll be just as, if not more effective and then Ashton will go to France score a couple of tries and pundits will say he should play for England......
Lions 2017
So the final meaningful round of games has passed in terms of Lions selection and it's time to finally consider a squad of 37 to attempt to live with the might of the All Blacks. Here's my choice of men for Warren Gatland to consider worthy of the highest honour rugby can bestow. It will be done in two parts, forwards first and then the backs.
Loosehead Prop
Jack McGrath has been immense for Ireland and Leinster all season and travels as first choice. Mako Vunipola offers drive and dynamism in the loose and is a natural second option. The third decision is more difficult. If he'd been fit enough to play international rugby this spring, Gethin Jenkins would have a great option due to his experience, ability to play both sides, and leadership qualities. Rob Evans has done a fine job deputising in the Six Nations and has added some great work in the loose in to his game. Joe Marler is solid in the scrum but is less of an impact off the bench and this needs to be considered here. Cian Healy has re-invented himself as a fine impact prop who is combative, strong in the scrum and experienced in the heat of battle. He grabs the third spot on the plane for me.
Hooker
A position that can be looked at two ways - either a position of weakness due to no true stand-out candidate, or a position of strength due to the wide variety of options available. Rory Best, captain of Ireland in their famous sweeping aside of the All Blacks in Chicago in the Autumn, has to tour. He was brilliant against England in Dublin and seems to rise to the biggest of occasions. Ken Owens was perhaps the finest hooker in the Six Nations and has played himself onto the plane, though Richard Hibbard is extremely unlucky as he still looks like the best Welsh hooker available. However, his exile from the national fold means he hasn't been tested at this level for too long. He would certainly be my first option if injury befalls any of the chosen hookers. The third spot is a shootout between the two English hookers, and Jamie George edges Dylan Hartley due to his superior set piece and potential impact from the bench.
Tighthead Prop
Tadhg Furlong and Dan Cole have been inked in for this position for over 6 months and nothing has changed in the intervening period to change things. The third spot is more tricky. Had he been fit, WP Nel would mean taking three immensely strong tight heads to upset the New Zealand scrum was a real option. As it is, no other starting number 3 has shone enough to merit real inclusion. The amount of penalties conceded by Tomas Francis has counted against him, while Zander Fagerson looks a little short of the quality required. A left-field choice could be John Ryan of Munster who has improved immensely this season, but the potential impact offered by Kyle Sinckler from the bench, and the point of difference his ball-carrying skills offer puts him on the plane with a chance to make a real impression. Don't be surprised if he has the number 18 shirt come the test series.
2nd Row
An incredibly competitive position where some people are going to be very unfortunate to be staying at home. Maro Itoje and Joe Launchbury have played themselves into the touring party, and potentially the test team, through their ball carrying and defensive work all season long, and are absolute definite choices for me. Alun Wyn Jones may have had his leadership questioned on a couple of occasions but it is imperative to take players who know what this tours entail, how to prepare on them and what is required in terms of supporting the whole squad. He has been there and done it all in this respect and deserves his spot on the plane again. Devin Toner and Iain Henderson are right on the cusp of touring and in any other year they, along with Richie Gray and Courtney Lawes, would be shoe-ins. However, the form of the younger Gray brother, Johnny gets him on the plane just in front. Finally, winning in New Zealand requires dictating the set-piece and there is no better exponent of the line-out than George Kruis. If fit, he will offer a combination physicality and cuteness in the air which could have the All Blacks scratching their heads and having to think on their feet.
Back Row
7 from the 15 or so potential options was always going to be difficult. Sam Warburton has had a 6 Nations up there with his best ever and could find himself starting the Test Series back in his favoured number 7 shirt. Billy Vunipola can compete with Kieran Read as a truly world-class number 8 and simply must travel. C J Stander may play at 6 for Ireland, but his ability to cover 8 means that both Jamie Heaslip and Ross Moriarty stay at home. Taulupe Faletau will be staying them due to not being the player he can be over the past 12 months. Justin Tipuric is exciting in the loose, a fine ball player and a clever line-out option who edges Hamish Watson on experience too. In a better club side, Watson will be an excellent prospect in 4 year's time. After recent weeks, to ignore Peter O'Mahony would seem madness at this moment in time. He offers very similar qualities to Tipuric whilst wearing 6 on his back, but has that added menace to his game which could certainly upset the All Blacks when they try to play the expansive style they are so used to. Further to this, taking a 6 who will do all the dirty work that goes unnoticed while tackling himself to a standstill will be vital. Chris Robshaw does this in spades and would bring great leadership to the midweek team if he misses out on test selection. And so to the final forward spot. Sean O'Brien covers the entire back row and on his day is a fine harrier who links play at the same time as smashing anything in sight. His form has been patchy this season though, and there have been days where he perhaps played himself out of the tour. In a similar vein, James Haskell has his good days and bad. His potential qualities as a tourist, coupled with his ability to impact games from the bench makes him a very close, but potentially very vital, selection.
Please feel free to offer comments and opinions before I post my backs in a couple of day's time....
In summary:
McGrath
M Vunipola
Healy
Best
Owens
George
Furlong
Cole
Sinckler
Itoje
Launchbury
A-W Jones
J Gray
Kruis
Warburton
B Vunipola
Stander
Tipuric
O'Mahony
Robshaw
Haskell
So the final meaningful round of games has passed in terms of Lions selection and it's time to finally consider a squad of 37 to attempt to live with the might of the All Blacks. Here's my choice of men for Warren Gatland to consider worthy of the highest honour rugby can bestow. It will be done in two parts, forwards first and then the backs.
Loosehead Prop
Jack McGrath has been immense for Ireland and Leinster all season and travels as first choice. Mako Vunipola offers drive and dynamism in the loose and is a natural second option. The third decision is more difficult. If he'd been fit enough to play international rugby this spring, Gethin Jenkins would have a great option due to his experience, ability to play both sides, and leadership qualities. Rob Evans has done a fine job deputising in the Six Nations and has added some great work in the loose in to his game. Joe Marler is solid in the scrum but is less of an impact off the bench and this needs to be considered here. Cian Healy has re-invented himself as a fine impact prop who is combative, strong in the scrum and experienced in the heat of battle. He grabs the third spot on the plane for me.
Hooker
A position that can be looked at two ways - either a position of weakness due to no true stand-out candidate, or a position of strength due to the wide variety of options available. Rory Best, captain of Ireland in their famous sweeping aside of the All Blacks in Chicago in the Autumn, has to tour. He was brilliant against England in Dublin and seems to rise to the biggest of occasions. Ken Owens was perhaps the finest hooker in the Six Nations and has played himself onto the plane, though Richard Hibbard is extremely unlucky as he still looks like the best Welsh hooker available. However, his exile from the national fold means he hasn't been tested at this level for too long. He would certainly be my first option if injury befalls any of the chosen hookers. The third spot is a shootout between the two English hookers, and Jamie George edges Dylan Hartley due to his superior set piece and potential impact from the bench.
Tighthead Prop
Tadhg Furlong and Dan Cole have been inked in for this position for over 6 months and nothing has changed in the intervening period to change things. The third spot is more tricky. Had he been fit, WP Nel would mean taking three immensely strong tight heads to upset the New Zealand scrum was a real option. As it is, no other starting number 3 has shone enough to merit real inclusion. The amount of penalties conceded by Tomas Francis has counted against him, while Zander Fagerson looks a little short of the quality required. A left-field choice could be John Ryan of Munster who has improved immensely this season, but the potential impact offered by Kyle Sinckler from the bench, and the point of difference his ball-carrying skills offer puts him on the plane with a chance to make a real impression. Don't be surprised if he has the number 18 shirt come the test series.
2nd Row
An incredibly competitive position where some people are going to be very unfortunate to be staying at home. Maro Itoje and Joe Launchbury have played themselves into the touring party, and potentially the test team, through their ball carrying and defensive work all season long, and are absolute definite choices for me. Alun Wyn Jones may have had his leadership questioned on a couple of occasions but it is imperative to take players who know what this tours entail, how to prepare on them and what is required in terms of supporting the whole squad. He has been there and done it all in this respect and deserves his spot on the plane again. Devin Toner and Iain Henderson are right on the cusp of touring and in any other year they, along with Richie Gray and Courtney Lawes, would be shoe-ins. However, the form of the younger Gray brother, Johnny gets him on the plane just in front. Finally, winning in New Zealand requires dictating the set-piece and there is no better exponent of the line-out than George Kruis. If fit, he will offer a combination physicality and cuteness in the air which could have the All Blacks scratching their heads and having to think on their feet.
Back Row
7 from the 15 or so potential options was always going to be difficult. Sam Warburton has had a 6 Nations up there with his best ever and could find himself starting the Test Series back in his favoured number 7 shirt. Billy Vunipola can compete with Kieran Read as a truly world-class number 8 and simply must travel. C J Stander may play at 6 for Ireland, but his ability to cover 8 means that both Jamie Heaslip and Ross Moriarty stay at home. Taulupe Faletau will be staying them due to not being the player he can be over the past 12 months. Justin Tipuric is exciting in the loose, a fine ball player and a clever line-out option who edges Hamish Watson on experience too. In a better club side, Watson will be an excellent prospect in 4 year's time. After recent weeks, to ignore Peter O'Mahony would seem madness at this moment in time. He offers very similar qualities to Tipuric whilst wearing 6 on his back, but has that added menace to his game which could certainly upset the All Blacks when they try to play the expansive style they are so used to. Further to this, taking a 6 who will do all the dirty work that goes unnoticed while tackling himself to a standstill will be vital. Chris Robshaw does this in spades and would bring great leadership to the midweek team if he misses out on test selection. And so to the final forward spot. Sean O'Brien covers the entire back row and on his day is a fine harrier who links play at the same time as smashing anything in sight. His form has been patchy this season though, and there have been days where he perhaps played himself out of the tour. In a similar vein, James Haskell has his good days and bad. His potential qualities as a tourist, coupled with his ability to impact games from the bench makes him a very close, but potentially very vital, selection.
Please feel free to offer comments and opinions before I post my backs in a couple of day's time....
In summary:
McGrath
M Vunipola
Healy
Best
Owens
George
Furlong
Cole
Sinckler
Itoje
Launchbury
A-W Jones
J Gray
Kruis
Warburton
B Vunipola
Stander
Tipuric
O'Mahony
Robshaw
Haskell
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Haskell has surely played himself way out of contention in his two games in Dublin! If you want a character who isn't incompetent you can bring Heaslip, SOB, Conan, Faletau and Moriarty are better options too. I don't know how well Haskell's attention seeking "banter" translates to a Lions tour either.
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Mostly agree Ruud, a few points from me though:
- Cian Healy. Not followed his progress post injury, but is he really a better option atm than Marler/Evans? If he's back playing well then fine, because he's a top quality player at his best.
- Kruis. Pre injury, he would have been a certainty, but he's been out for a while and still isn't back playing. Can't justify his inclusion imo.
- Robshaw. Also still injured isn't he? Not sure he's quite got the quality anyway. There are countless other options who'll do the donkey work + offer something extra.
- Haskell. Completely agree with Alpha Bro. Better options available imo.
- Flaetau. Unfair to dismiss him due to injury when others above have been included regardless.
- Cian Healy. Not followed his progress post injury, but is he really a better option atm than Marler/Evans? If he's back playing well then fine, because he's a top quality player at his best.
- Kruis. Pre injury, he would have been a certainty, but he's been out for a while and still isn't back playing. Can't justify his inclusion imo.
- Robshaw. Also still injured isn't he? Not sure he's quite got the quality anyway. There are countless other options who'll do the donkey work + offer something extra.
- Haskell. Completely agree with Alpha Bro. Better options available imo.
- Flaetau. Unfair to dismiss him due to injury when others above have been included regardless.
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I agree with alot of what was said. Good post.
Robshaw is back for Quins and is playing well, but with no big fixtures i cant see him getting on the plane.
Haskell was immense for England before his injury. Since he's been back he was playing well until Ireland. Leinster game he was completely outshone by Conan and SOB. Difficult one as his performances before this 6 nations had him on the plane for me. Now I'm very unsure.
Kruis still ain't playing, it's hard to put him in. But he has big games for Saracens coming up and internationally he's never let the team down.
Faletau, good player. Very good player, if we want everyone to have good skills then i think he'll go. Depends what we want from our back row and if he's there it means Stander needs to play to have a carrier. Unless Faletau plays 6
Robshaw is back for Quins and is playing well, but with no big fixtures i cant see him getting on the plane.
Haskell was immense for England before his injury. Since he's been back he was playing well until Ireland. Leinster game he was completely outshone by Conan and SOB. Difficult one as his performances before this 6 nations had him on the plane for me. Now I'm very unsure.
Kruis still ain't playing, it's hard to put him in. But he has big games for Saracens coming up and internationally he's never let the team down.
Faletau, good player. Very good player, if we want everyone to have good skills then i think he'll go. Depends what we want from our back row and if he's there it means Stander needs to play to have a carrier. Unless Faletau plays 6
Diomedes
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Good post Ruud, await your backs post with interest.
I'd argue for O'Brien's inclusion over Haskell - he looked back to his best on Saturday, and completely eclipsed Haskell in performance. He can also play across the backrow and has previous Lions experience under Gatland which could stand in his favour.
I'd argue for O'Brien's inclusion over Haskell - he looked back to his best on Saturday, and completely eclipsed Haskell in performance. He can also play across the backrow and has previous Lions experience under Gatland which could stand in his favour.
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Rory Best has risen on occasion but its not been a vintage season for him or Ireland to be honest. I think we may be putting too much into that game at home, on St Patricks day, playing against England, Nothing to lose etc etc. Ireland and Bests performances away from home have not been great in this years 6 nations and the Lions will be playing away...
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You'd have to think Warbs is now a heavy favourite.
I think Robshaw would be a very good call to tour. Out of the Richard Hill mould if not quite his class. Suspect he's always far more appreciated by team mates than the paying public. We certainly missed him in the 6N and apparently he was excellent in his return for Quins.
Warbs and Robshaw packing down either side of Stander with Billy to come on at 55 has a nice feel to it.
I think Robshaw would be a very good call to tour. Out of the Richard Hill mould if not quite his class. Suspect he's always far more appreciated by team mates than the paying public. We certainly missed him in the 6N and apparently he was excellent in his return for Quins.
Warbs and Robshaw packing down either side of Stander with Billy to come on at 55 has a nice feel to it.
MarkyH
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Cracking write up. Looking forward to your backs selection...
I'd probably take SOB over Haskell. Would like to see Faletau on the plane too. So many close calls in all positions, its not a slight on players like Marler or Henderson that they miss out in this selection. Robshaw I'd definately take to.
I'd do a write up too but my selection changes daily.
I'd probably take SOB over Haskell. Would like to see Faletau on the plane too. So many close calls in all positions, its not a slight on players like Marler or Henderson that they miss out in this selection. Robshaw I'd definately take to.
I'd do a write up too but my selection changes daily.
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Large enough bet placed on an NZ clean sweep, 10/11 for what I think is an absolute sure thing was too hard to turn down having come into a bit of dosh! Might get odds on them losing half their games or more closer to the time. Looking forward to this now for all the wrong reasons for someone who should be supporting this side! 
I find it hard to justify taking Haskell and Robshaw while leaving talents like SOB and Faletau at home. The Lions can't hope to compete with the All Blacks by just working hard and tackling anything that moves, they'll need players who can take the game to them. It helps that Faletau and SOB have both just had great games this weekend.
Kruis goes for me. The lineout is always an issue for the Lions, has been on every tour since '01, so taking the best lineout forward available makes sense. He's due back in 2 weeks, so if the medics are confident he'll be ok he's well worth the risk imo.
Marler over Healy for me. Just a flat out better player.
Kruis goes for me. The lineout is always an issue for the Lions, has been on every tour since '01, so taking the best lineout forward available makes sense. He's due back in 2 weeks, so if the medics are confident he'll be ok he's well worth the risk imo.
Marler over Healy for me. Just a flat out better player.
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