(Very) early thoughts on the 2017 Lions

[ae15]

My squad after the Six Nations, starters at the moment in bold (although no one can really say exactly who should start until the conclusion of the warm ups):

1. Vunipola, Marler, Evans
2. Owens, George, Best
3. Furlong, Sinckler, Cole
4/5. Launchbury, AW Jones, Itoje, Kruis, Lawes
6. Stander, O'Mahony
7. Warburton, Tipuric, Watson
8. Vunipola, Faletau
9. Murray, Webb, Youngs
10. Sexton, Ford
12. Farrell, Henshaw
13. Joseph, Daly, Te'o
11/14. Williams, North, Halfpenny, Watson, Seymour - Halfpenny's kicking could really be invaluable and he has looked in the past far more dangerous on the wing than at full back.
15. Hogg

 

[General Melchett]

I'm not questioning Ford's ability as he clearly has bags of talent but is he really a shoe in as the second 10? He was excellent against us but I thought he was a bit meh in the other games. Just not sure about his consistency and I'm not sure if Gatland will be concerned that he could be a target for the opposition. I'm a bit concerned that Howley, as head attack coach will push for Biggar going, which would be a very poor decision.

With Huw Jones now rules out, the only Scots I can see with a chance of making it are Hogg (cert), J Gray, Watson, Seymour and possibly Russell if he delivers big time against Saracens.

 

[NickBD]

Haha, yes very well made. I know Scrum V is aimed at a Welsh audience, but seriously are the ex Welsh players like Shane Williams that deluded. Yes, those 6 have case for making the squad, but based on their 6Nations form in the last two and Autumn series, plus how they faired in the RWC making the starting XV. At least Jackson gave some reasoning to his selections i.e. Daly over JJ for his kicking game; Murray over Webb etc. Who then made a good point again how bad the Welsh players skill set are.

Hook going for Liam Williams over Hogg because he is safer defensively, when Sean Holley showed in his analysis Williams failure to sweep behind the Welsh defence led to the French try really took the biscuit. Yes, let's choose a full back because he is safer v NZ because that'll beat the ABs.

You should see Jeremy Guscott team on BBC website almost as bad as that. Although Mike Philips in same story is actually funny.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/39322306

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Haha, yes very well made. I know Scrum V is aimed at a Welsh audience, but seriously are the ex Welsh players like Shane Williams that deluded. Yes, those 6 have case for making the squad, but based on their 6Nations form in the last two and Autumn series, plus how they faired in the RWC making the starting XV. At least Jackson gave some reasoning to his selections i.e. Daly over JJ for his kicking game; Murray over Webb etc. Who then made a good point again how bad the Welsh players skill set are.

Hook going for Liam Williams over Hogg because he is safer defensively, when Sean Holley showed in his analysis Williams failure to sweep behind the Welsh defence led to the French try really took the biscuit. Yes, let's choose a full back because he is safer v NZ because that'll beat the ABs.

It's pretty cringy, especially the inevitable cheap crowd pleaser of saying something anti-English, I'm actually disappointed with how many go for that cheap applause. I actually like Jackson, I think he is the most balanced on that program although Gwyn Jones is quite good too. JD can actually offer some reasonable analysis but clearly loves the sound of his own voice far too much.

 

[martinspoonboy1]

My squad after the Six Nations, starters at the moment in bold (although no one can really say exactly who should start until the conclusion of the warm ups):

1. Vunipola, Marler, Evans
2. Owens, George, Best
3. Furlong, Sinckler, Cole
4/5. Launchbury, AW Jones, Itoje, Kruis, Lawes
6. Stander, O'Mahony
7. Warburton, Tipuric, Watson
8. Vunipola, Faletau
9. Murray, Webb, Youngs
10. Sexton, Ford
12. Farrell, Henshaw
13. Joseph, Daly, Te'o
11/14. Williams, North, Halfpenny, Watson, Seymour - Halfpenny's kicking could really be invaluable and he has looked in the past far more dangerous on the wing than at full back.
15. Hogg

Not with Farrell and Sexton on the pitch. Their %s over the last couple seasons are practically identical. Yet I would put atleast 8 wingers ahead of HP in regards wing play (if not more).

 

[Bada-Bing!]

It's pretty cringy, especially the inevitable cheap crowd pleaser of saying something anti-English, I'm actually disappointed with how many go for that cheap applause. I actually like Jackson, I think he is the most balanced on that program although Gwyn Jones is quite good too. JD can actually offer some reasonable analysis but clearly loves the sound of his own voice far too much.

Yep, the biggest cheer came about when Adam Jones was asked what he thought about England not winning the slam and he said "yeah, thank God for that". The "as long as England lose" mentality despite what Wales do still pervades alot of the audience on Scrum V.

Yeah, glad they asked Jackson back because his comments are much more reasoned. I thought they might not ask him back when in his first appearance on the show he got into a bit of an argument with Jiffy. I think as Tallshort pointed out others like Jones, Shane and Martyn Williams, James Hook are still involved in the game and in contact with current Welsh internationals, so in the back of the minds don't want to criticse their "mates".



On a separate note, what are peeps thoughts on Jones suggestion of choosing the 4 of the National captains, as captains for the Lions to form the initial leadership group, rather than 1 tour captain? http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/39347452

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Not a fan mainly because I don't think Laidlaw or Barclay should tour, so it's flawed in that sense. Also means that potential captains such as Warbs, Faz, Stander, J Gray etc. Don't get a look in. All of which I'd rather have as captain than any of the current international captains due to the fact that besides Best, I don't think any should be starting, and even he is far from bolted on. Also not a fan of captains that will be going off at ~50min mark, so for me anyway, front rowers are ruled out.

Edit: Also think that effectively selecting one captain from each nation would cause the party to be a bit more inclined to divide into 4 groups, which in a situation where you need them to merge in a matter of weeks, is pretty counter productive.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Yep, the biggest cheer came about when Adam Jones was asked what he thought about England not winning the slam and he said "yeah, thank God for that". The "as long as England lose" mentality despite what Wales do still pervades alot of the audience on Scrum V.

Yeah, glad they asked Jackson back because his comments are much more reasoned. I thought they might not ask him back when in his first appearance on the show he got into a bit of an argument with Jiffy. I think as Tallshort pointed out others like Jones, Shane and Martyn Williams, James Hook are still involved in the game and in contact with current Welsh internationals, so in the back of the minds don't want to criticse their "mates".



On a separate note, what are peeps thoughts on Jones suggestion of choosing the 4 of the National captains, as captains for the Lions to form the initial leadership group, rather than 1 tour captain? http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/39347452

I know Scrum V isn't representative of the Welsh posters on here at all, but presumably it exists because there is a demand for that sort of thing generally in. Wales? Personally I have no problem with the focus on Wales at all, but sometimes to sinks a bit low and petty. Like when we won the championship last week it wasn't even mentioned from memory until they got to the final table 2/3 through the show.

I think Jiffy is friendly with Biggar, so yeah you will never seen overt criticism. Jiffy isn't as biased as some people think but I think he's under pressure to be pro-wales in everything.

Nice seeing Jones begging up Sinkler for the lions.

As for Jones idea, not convinced - it doesn't seem to be conducive to putting your nationalities aside and stepping into the Lions mentality. It could represent in fractured, dick swinging competition and cliques. Think Eddie is wrong on that one.

 

[dullonien]

Yep, the biggest cheer came about when Adam Jones was asked what he thought about England not winning the slam and he said "yeah, thank God for that". The "as long as England lose" mentality despite what Wales do still pervades alot of the audience on Scrum V.

Way too much is made of this whenever its brought up. It's sporting rivalry in the same way as any derby match in any sport in any given country. Cardiff v Ponty in rugby here in Wales, Everton v Liverpool in football, the list could go on and on...... It may be slightly magnified because it's at international level, but ultimately it's a bit of banter! Of course some take it seriously and take it outside of sport, but they are a tiny minority.

I suppose the odd thing here is that most English supporters don't feel the same (unlike in most derby matches).

Wales had very little to cheer about regarding our own performances, of course there was going to be a little dig that England fell at the last hurdle (on the grand slam side at least)! Very few people I know have the mentality of 'as long as we beat the English'.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I can agree with having 2 captains, 3 at a stretch depending on how strenuous so many games will be but certainly not split between the nations and deffo not 4. I'd much rather Jones actually didn't say much at all regarding the Lions and instead talk about what he wants to do with England when we go to Argentina, I'd much rather hear about potential names, the development etc etc than 4 lions captains.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Way too much is made of this whenever its brought up. It's sporting rivalry in the same way as any derby match in any sport in any given country. Cardiff v Ponty in rugby here in Wales, Everton v Liverpool in football, the list could go on and on...... It may be slightly magnified because it's at international level, but ultimately it's a bit of banter! Of course some take it seriously and take it outside of sport, but they are a tiny minority.

I suppose the odd thing here is that most English supporters don't feel the same (unlike in most derby matches).

Wales had very little to cheer about regarding our own performances, of course there was going to be a little dig that England fell at the last hurdle (on the grand slam side at least)! Very few people I know have the mentality of 'as long as we beat the English'.

This whole " it's just banter" argument is just an excuse to justify and normalise anti English sentiment IMO i.e. if it's ok to be anti English in the realms of rugby/any sport, then it's ok in everyday life in general. Some, I am sure can't separate the two. I get that it's a historical thing and it is not only Wales i.e. Scotland, Ireland, as well as NZ/Australia, SA, France etc also relish beating England more than any other nation. But I personally do find it funny how much certain Welsh fans still use it as a means to make themselves feel better, if Wales are not doing well. Whatever makes them feel better despite Wales' own poor showing this 6Ns, but it's more a reflection of them than England i.e. how insecure they are in their Welsh identity that they have to constantly measure their success against England. Maybe Scrum V is not a good representation of all Welsh rugby fans, but IMO it's a bad reflection on certain sections of the Welsh support.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Way too much is made of this whenever its brought up. It's sporting rivalry in the same way as any derby match in any sport in any given country. Cardiff v Ponty in rugby here in Wales, Everton v Liverpool in football, the list could go on and on...... It may be slightly magnified because it's at international level, but ultimately it's a bit of banter! Of course some take it seriously and take it outside of sport, but they are a tiny minority.

I suppose the odd thing here is that most English supporters don't feel the same (unlike in most derby matches).

Wales had very little to cheer about regarding our own performances, of course there was going to be a little dig that England fell at the last hurdle (on the grand slam side at least)! Very few people I know have the mentality of 'as long as we beat the English'.

The English I met in Dublin after the match were all saying things like "at least it was you and not Wales" or "we still won the Championship and Wales came 5th so it could be worse". Its not as if English fans would be cheering Wales on in the reverse!

I think Wales attract a lot of "hate" too, most real rugby fans over here want to beat Wales more than England.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Yeh I prefer the French, Saffas, Scots, Irish, Italians, Aussies, Landers, Argies in fact everyone to the Welsh if I'm being honest.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Of the home Nations Wakes are currently the ones I hate most, but due to the antics of Webb and Biggar as well as their boring game plan and conservative selections. That said, I will still support them over any of the non-home nations

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

It's completely circumstantial for me, I wanted England to beat Wales so we could stop their record but I doubt if that had been around I'd be the same way. I'll usually cheer for anyone over Argentina and I like France more than anyone but Ireland but inbetween it can go any way, Engand, SA and Wales rarely get my affection but I could still support them over Aus, NZ and Scotland depending on the build up to the game.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I don't like Welsh fans and I don't like Exeter Chiefs fans (I like them as a team just not the fans).

Outside of that I generally rot for who benefits England and Tigers most. (Also being a 10th Japanese through watching Pokemon and Digimon as a kid I have a soft spot for them aswell).

I quite like Scotland and Ireland and don't feel bad for cheering them on. The rest I tend to keep changing, as long as Wales stays on the bottom.

 

[McTallshort]

The English I met in Dublin after the match were all saying things like "at least it was you and not Wales" or "we still won the Championship and Wales came 5th so it could be worse". Its not as if English fans would be cheering Wales on in the reverse!

I think Wales attract a lot of "hate" too, most real rugby fans over here want to beat Wales more than England.

No sorry, losing to Ireland is the worst thing in the world.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

The English I met in Dublin after the match were all saying things like "at least it was you and not Wales" or "we still won the Championship and Wales came 5th so it could be worse". Its not as if English fans would be cheering Wales on in the reverse!

I think Wales attract a lot of "hate" too, most real rugby fans over here want to beat Wales more than England.

You're right there but the amount that English fans want to beat other teams is in direct proportion to how much they want to beat us, and it's a reaction to it. For example scrum 5 is a good reason in itself to want to beat Wales.
I want to beat Ireland a lot but less than Wales because although Ireland love beating us, their fans are not quite so militant.
The Scotland rivalry has become sort of irrelevant because of how weak Scotland have been for many years but it could change now that Scotland appear to have some rugby players rather than random guys cobbled together from down the local pub.


I love that the French think 'the British stick together' when it comes to the six nations. So far from the truth.

 

[dullonien]

This whole " it's just banter" argument is just an excuse to justify and normalise anti English sentiment IMO i.e. if it's ok to be anti English in the realms of rugby/any sport, then it's ok in everyday life in general. Some, I am sure can't separate the two. I get that it's a historical thing and it is not only Wales i.e. Scotland, Ireland, as well as NZ/Australia, SA, France etc also relish beating England more than any other nation. But I personally do find it funny how much certain Welsh fans still use it as a means to make themselves feel better, if Wales are not doing well. Whatever makes them feel better despite Wales' own poor showing this 6Ns, but it's more a reflection of them than England i.e. how insecure they are in their Welsh identity that they have to constantly measure their success against England. Maybe Scrum V is not a good representation of all Welsh rugby fans, but IMO it's a bad reflection on certain sections of the Welsh support.

Again, far from the mark Imo. How is it different than rivalry between two nearby schools, 2 nearby clubs (football. Rugby, whatever), 2 nearby villages'/towns/cities etc. etc.

Different schools come together when it comes to supporting their town, different towns/cities come together when it comes to supporting their nation, different nations come together for the Olympics/Lions.

Sporting rivalry doesn't equal anti-English, even if some unfortunately do mix the two. There's tw*ts everywhere though!

Can I ask you if you have a sporting rivalry with another team (e.g. AP club)?

 

[Which Tyler]

Sorry Dullonien, but as a Bath fan living just outside Gloucester, i know what local rivalry looks like, and it looks absolutely nothing like the **** we get from the Welsh.
I'd also add to The AlphaBro that i think the English dislike of losing to the Welsh isn't that we hate the Welsh, or particularly have a rivalry with them, but that we cop so much more **** from the Welsh fans than any other set, so yeah, I'd far rather lose to Ireland than Wales, because the following g month or so aren't full of crowing and abuse.