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With the current state of professional rugby I imagine at least 2 or 3 players will get injured before the tour starts and Hartley will get his usual ban. 
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(Very) early thoughts on the 2017 Lions
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I realise this is total fantasy but here is my squad with an even split of players between the 4 home countries. ( I real
ise 37 is not divisible by 4, therefore England has the extra body, as 6N champions)
Props: McGrath, Vunipola, Marler, Furlong, Cole, Nel
Hookers: Best, Owens, Ford
Locks: AWJ, Launchbury, Itoje, Kruis, Gray J
Back Row: Warburton, Stander, POM, Tipuric, Watson, Vunipola, Faleteau
Scrum Half: Murray, Webb, Price
Fly Half: Sexton, Russell
Centres: Farrell, JJ, Henshaw, Jones H
Wings: North, Williams, Seymour, Watson
Fullbacks: Hogg, Kearney, Halfpenny
English 10
Irish 9
Welsh 9
Scots 9
A Scotsman can dream!
ise 37 is not divisible by 4, therefore England has the extra body, as 6N champions)
Props: McGrath, Vunipola, Marler, Furlong, Cole, Nel
Hookers: Best, Owens, Ford
Locks: AWJ, Launchbury, Itoje, Kruis, Gray J
Back Row: Warburton, Stander, POM, Tipuric, Watson, Vunipola, Faleteau
Scrum Half: Murray, Webb, Price
Fly Half: Sexton, Russell
Centres: Farrell, JJ, Henshaw, Jones H
Wings: North, Williams, Seymour, Watson
Fullbacks: Hogg, Kearney, Halfpenny
English 10
Irish 9
Welsh 9
Scots 9
A Scotsman can dream!
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Scottish don't seem to get too much love despite having a decent tournament. I don't think Russel will go, too much brilliance then backed up with poor play and mistakes. Did Nel play this 6 nations? He was in the squad but i can't remember him playing.
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Nel's injured, unlikely to be back in time. Scotland have improved but few players you could say are outstanding candidates - I'd largely agree with alpha bro's squad. If anything Scottish improvement has been less deadwood and good supply of reasonable players rather than many outstanding ones. Would have said J Gray a certainty but he looks knackered.
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My assessment of the England squads chances after last match. In my arbitrary scoring system 5 out of 10 represents a 50% chance to be selected.
Up
Daly
Despite evidently not being a winger it's just hard to criticise what he's put out there. Think he sold the defensive line short on one occasion but still showed some bite and was pretty dependable. Like a more flashy version of Nowell. The back 3 lions environment is competitive but my boy is in with a shout at least.
Chances : 6 / 10. (It's tough out there..)
Lawes
Despite an unnecessary knock on and a penalty he still stood out as someone really determined to continue that improvement we've been seeing. Have got to admit I was wrong about Lawes previously, thinking he wouldn't be able to add to his game. I think he can deserve to feel disappointed if he doesn't get a lions place.
Chances : 6/10
Launchbury
I haven't seen the flashy launchbury you sometimes get for wasps in open play, nor the launchbury pilfering turnover, but he's working hard and getting through a lot. His carrying against Ireland was a little disappointing but whose wasn't?
Chances : 8/10
George
It's not that he had a great game overall, he didn't, but he still brought an energy which was a stark contrast to Hartleys sterile showing. Has a good shot at that last hooker berth. Will be our first choice hooker in 12-18 months time unless Cowan Dickie can beat him to it.
6.5/10
Stayed Put
Cole
You know what you get with Cole. He's not a risk to take on tour. He doesn't seem to have that strength over the ball he used to but he still tries. Works hard for a prop, and he put up a decent fight against McGrath. I don't think he had a great game by any means but I think those two largely dealing with each other head to head confirmed their value to Gatland. Also helps that Fagerson didn't have a strong tournament.
9/10
Marler
Could find himself no more than a dark horse after some impressive Welsh propping last few games, but I much prefer this Marler to that of 3 years ago. Defensively, carrying.. I don't think him getting taken off means a great deal, Eddie just wanted impact.
Chances : 5.5 / 10
Itoje
Despite 3 penalties you saw how much he contributed to that defensive effort. His linespeed, his power in the tackle, and attempts to get over the ball. Another thing I saw was super important: one of our forwards had conceded a penalty on the floor and England at this point we're looking dejected and flummoxed. No idea where Hartley was but Itoje strutted (because he literally does) over to him like everything was fine picked him up and a encouraged him.. small thing but it showed how confident he is and that he leads by example. He needs to look at his high tackling Sometimes but it's how he plays the game.
Chances: 9.5/10
Vunipola
It's not his fault. I don't think that cameo against Scotland was enough of a basis to be starting again. He was a little off the pace and wasn't brought into the game. Ineffective largely, but we all know what he brings and I will bite my arm off if he doesn't tour.
Chances: 9/10
Joseph
What is there to say? He was rendered an irrelevance by Ireland through no fault of his own.
Chances : 7.5 / 10
Mako Vunipola
The poorly structured and organised England side set most of our carriers up to fail. But on a good day this guy is unstoppable. Held up ok in the scrums. Should tour.
Chances: 7 / 10
Te'o
Honestly don't remember a lot about him except he seemed to get concussed. An ask too far to turn such a poor showing into anything more. I don't think he'll tour because of how well both Irish centres did, but would bring a hell of a lot if he did.
Chances: 4 / 10
Down
Hartley - I'm not ready to call him 'out' because of how problematic the hooker situation is. In his favour is experience, and the fact that Gatland picked him last time. On the flip side, he did nothing in the final game apart from hit some rucks.
Chances : 3 / 10
Haskell
Probably a little harsh because he wasn't any worse then many of those I've classed as stayed put but in the context of the backrow battle with so many candidates, and getting outplayed by Ireland's 6 and 7, you'd have to think his chances are slim right now. Bad choice of occasion to not really turn up.
Chances : 4.5 / 10
Youngs
Webb has simply been better this tournament and showed it again on Saturday. Youngs doesn't boss his forwards enough. By now with his experience I'd like liked him to be more of a leader. He's too quiet. Still has a chance for sure but it's that third spot he's competing for.
Chances : 5 / 10
Ford
Not such a happy game. Sexton bossed it in a way Ford couldn't or didn't and there. Still offers something different and deserves to go. Fight fire with fire etc...
Chances : 7 / 10
Watson
Didn't look sharp, though didn't get too much opportunity. Completely unforced knock on cost us an opportunity to run the ball. Any more criticism than simply stating fact sis unfair, he's been races back in, which was unnecessary IMO.
Chances : 6 / 10
Farrell
5 missed tackles is not ok for someone who relishes the contact as much as he does. It's possible some of these will have been as supporting tackler, but would have to check that. Just an off day though, it happens and I think he'll bounce back.
Chances : 9 / 10
Out
Brown
If he even ever had a chance at this tour it's long gone now. Not contributing anything much anymore and he killed us twice with knock-ons.
Chances : 1 / 10
Care
Overlooked last time despite at the time being evens with Young, and it's set to happen again. This tournament has shown that in the front foot you don't want anyone else, but on the back foot...Forget it. Stupid penalty against The the opposite scrum half would have had Jones fuming and Gatland backing slowly away.
Chances : 3.5 / 10
Wood
Grasped the opportunity to do absolutely nothing with both hands.
Chances : 0.00001 / 10
Up
Daly
Despite evidently not being a winger it's just hard to criticise what he's put out there. Think he sold the defensive line short on one occasion but still showed some bite and was pretty dependable. Like a more flashy version of Nowell. The back 3 lions environment is competitive but my boy is in with a shout at least.
Chances : 6 / 10. (It's tough out there..)
Lawes
Despite an unnecessary knock on and a penalty he still stood out as someone really determined to continue that improvement we've been seeing. Have got to admit I was wrong about Lawes previously, thinking he wouldn't be able to add to his game. I think he can deserve to feel disappointed if he doesn't get a lions place.
Chances : 6/10
Launchbury
I haven't seen the flashy launchbury you sometimes get for wasps in open play, nor the launchbury pilfering turnover, but he's working hard and getting through a lot. His carrying against Ireland was a little disappointing but whose wasn't?
Chances : 8/10
George
It's not that he had a great game overall, he didn't, but he still brought an energy which was a stark contrast to Hartleys sterile showing. Has a good shot at that last hooker berth. Will be our first choice hooker in 12-18 months time unless Cowan Dickie can beat him to it.
6.5/10
Stayed Put
Cole
You know what you get with Cole. He's not a risk to take on tour. He doesn't seem to have that strength over the ball he used to but he still tries. Works hard for a prop, and he put up a decent fight against McGrath. I don't think he had a great game by any means but I think those two largely dealing with each other head to head confirmed their value to Gatland. Also helps that Fagerson didn't have a strong tournament.
9/10
Marler
Could find himself no more than a dark horse after some impressive Welsh propping last few games, but I much prefer this Marler to that of 3 years ago. Defensively, carrying.. I don't think him getting taken off means a great deal, Eddie just wanted impact.
Chances : 5.5 / 10
Itoje
Despite 3 penalties you saw how much he contributed to that defensive effort. His linespeed, his power in the tackle, and attempts to get over the ball. Another thing I saw was super important: one of our forwards had conceded a penalty on the floor and England at this point we're looking dejected and flummoxed. No idea where Hartley was but Itoje strutted (because he literally does) over to him like everything was fine picked him up and a encouraged him.. small thing but it showed how confident he is and that he leads by example. He needs to look at his high tackling Sometimes but it's how he plays the game.
Chances: 9.5/10
Vunipola
It's not his fault. I don't think that cameo against Scotland was enough of a basis to be starting again. He was a little off the pace and wasn't brought into the game. Ineffective largely, but we all know what he brings and I will bite my arm off if he doesn't tour.
Chances: 9/10
Joseph
What is there to say? He was rendered an irrelevance by Ireland through no fault of his own.
Chances : 7.5 / 10
Mako Vunipola
The poorly structured and organised England side set most of our carriers up to fail. But on a good day this guy is unstoppable. Held up ok in the scrums. Should tour.
Chances: 7 / 10
Te'o
Honestly don't remember a lot about him except he seemed to get concussed. An ask too far to turn such a poor showing into anything more. I don't think he'll tour because of how well both Irish centres did, but would bring a hell of a lot if he did.
Chances: 4 / 10
Down
Hartley - I'm not ready to call him 'out' because of how problematic the hooker situation is. In his favour is experience, and the fact that Gatland picked him last time. On the flip side, he did nothing in the final game apart from hit some rucks.
Chances : 3 / 10
Haskell
Probably a little harsh because he wasn't any worse then many of those I've classed as stayed put but in the context of the backrow battle with so many candidates, and getting outplayed by Ireland's 6 and 7, you'd have to think his chances are slim right now. Bad choice of occasion to not really turn up.
Chances : 4.5 / 10
Youngs
Webb has simply been better this tournament and showed it again on Saturday. Youngs doesn't boss his forwards enough. By now with his experience I'd like liked him to be more of a leader. He's too quiet. Still has a chance for sure but it's that third spot he's competing for.
Chances : 5 / 10
Ford
Not such a happy game. Sexton bossed it in a way Ford couldn't or didn't and there. Still offers something different and deserves to go. Fight fire with fire etc...
Chances : 7 / 10
Watson
Didn't look sharp, though didn't get too much opportunity. Completely unforced knock on cost us an opportunity to run the ball. Any more criticism than simply stating fact sis unfair, he's been races back in, which was unnecessary IMO.
Chances : 6 / 10
Farrell
5 missed tackles is not ok for someone who relishes the contact as much as he does. It's possible some of these will have been as supporting tackler, but would have to check that. Just an off day though, it happens and I think he'll bounce back.
Chances : 9 / 10
Out
Brown
If he even ever had a chance at this tour it's long gone now. Not contributing anything much anymore and he killed us twice with knock-ons.
Chances : 1 / 10
Care
Overlooked last time despite at the time being evens with Young, and it's set to happen again. This tournament has shown that in the front foot you don't want anyone else, but on the back foot...Forget it. Stupid penalty against The the opposite scrum half would have had Jones fuming and Gatland backing slowly away.
Chances : 3.5 / 10
Wood
Grasped the opportunity to do absolutely nothing with both hands.
Chances : 0.00001 / 10
Last edited:
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With Nel unlikely to make it, the question in my mind is who is the obvious choice to take as the 3rd tighthead spot behind Cole and Furlong. Last time Gatland plumped for Matt Stevens, as he could play both sides. But this time round there doesn't appear to be another prop who can do this. So, it looks like between: Sinkler (could pick him for his carrying ability, but questions still about his ability to scrummage at the very highest level, Samson Lee or Tomas Francis, and Zander Fergusson (enough experience?)
Any others?
Can Cian Healy cover tighthead (seeing as I think it's between him and Marler to take the 3rd loosehead spot)? I appreciate it's easier for a prop to go from Tighthead to loosehead, than the otherway round.
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I wouldn't be surprised if they take 45 players, effectively 3 per position, considering the amount of games they have. Front row I would take Vunipola, McGrath, Evans, Owens, George, Best, Furlong, Cole, Fagerson
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I'll do one of these Henry.
Up
POM - Went from not being considered to the only 6 other than CJ available, in at the expense of Robshaw who won't be able to get his chance. 7/10
Henshaw - One on one got the better of his rival for the test start, on the plane avoiding bouts of madness and injury. 9/10
Ringrose - My second best 13 after the lad that he got the better of on Saturday, doubt Gatland agrees, Jon Davies for 13! 3/10
Payne - Brings something different to the 15 role, a better range of passing than available elsewhere and a strong runner, can't wait to see what he can do fully fit up against Halfpenny, Williams, Daly and Kearney for at most two spots though. 4/10
Best - Played himself out of captain of contention in the first 4 games and was borderline for a spot on the plane ââ'¬â€¹shouldââ'¬â€¹ edge Hartley now. 5.5/10
Stayed Put
CJ - Not his best game, further proved his extra versatility though, he has greater ambitions than just a spot on the plane. 9/10
Sexton - Went from comfortably the best 10 available to comfortably the best 10 available. 9.5/10
Murray - It was proven that he's not as special as thought, pick, step and pass is too slow at international level but he's better than all other options at everything else. 9/10
McGrath - Not a fantastic tournament but the best scrummager and tackler available, can be the best in the world on his day though. 9/10
Furlong - Beast, best available, nothing we knew prior to the game. 9.5/10
Heaslip - Stander wasn't better than him, had a strong Championship. 6.5/10
Down
SOB - Not a great championship, he'll be relying on his, rather impressive, form in the past and a strong European QF. 5/10
Out
Toner - Needed a big tournament going in, ended up getting dropped by Schmidt. .5/10
Zebo - Strong chance going in, proven excruciatingly average and too slow for an international wing who can't defend that well. .5/10
Trimble - Injury never gave him a chance, has more in the bank than the rest in this bracket though. 1/10
Up
POM - Went from not being considered to the only 6 other than CJ available, in at the expense of Robshaw who won't be able to get his chance. 7/10
Henshaw - One on one got the better of his rival for the test start, on the plane avoiding bouts of madness and injury. 9/10
Ringrose - My second best 13 after the lad that he got the better of on Saturday, doubt Gatland agrees, Jon Davies for 13! 3/10
Payne - Brings something different to the 15 role, a better range of passing than available elsewhere and a strong runner, can't wait to see what he can do fully fit up against Halfpenny, Williams, Daly and Kearney for at most two spots though. 4/10
Best - Played himself out of captain of contention in the first 4 games and was borderline for a spot on the plane ââ'¬â€¹shouldââ'¬â€¹ edge Hartley now. 5.5/10
Stayed Put
CJ - Not his best game, further proved his extra versatility though, he has greater ambitions than just a spot on the plane. 9/10
Sexton - Went from comfortably the best 10 available to comfortably the best 10 available. 9.5/10
Murray - It was proven that he's not as special as thought, pick, step and pass is too slow at international level but he's better than all other options at everything else. 9/10
McGrath - Not a fantastic tournament but the best scrummager and tackler available, can be the best in the world on his day though. 9/10
Furlong - Beast, best available, nothing we knew prior to the game. 9.5/10
Heaslip - Stander wasn't better than him, had a strong Championship. 6.5/10
Down
SOB - Not a great championship, he'll be relying on his, rather impressive, form in the past and a strong European QF. 5/10
Out
Toner - Needed a big tournament going in, ended up getting dropped by Schmidt. .5/10
Zebo - Strong chance going in, proven excruciatingly average and too slow for an international wing who can't defend that well. .5/10
Trimble - Injury never gave him a chance, has more in the bank than the rest in this bracket though. 1/10
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I was rather disappointed with Sean O'Brien's performances, he used to be able to run over people for fun but paled in comparison to Stander. I know he had a few shaky moments but would much rather Payne over Kearney.
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Good stuff.
Zebo is already a lion, can't believe that. Honestly I can only think that I must have been too focused on England because I can't say I noticed Zebo being too terrible defensively. I'm sure you're right but maybe he's got more chance than you think. 2 or 3 maybe.
O'Brien was a little better at the weekend I thought. I think Gatland might give him the benefit of the doubt you know.
I wonder if Ringrose will benefit from being seen as someone who could benefit from being part o the top party but not expected to play tests. from memory last time around Gatland called up a few people who were never in the mix for a test place. Wade and Twelvetrees for example.
Jon Davies man....he should be the 5th choice after Jospeh, Ringrose, Huw Jones and Daly.
Best has a higher chance than that. But before this tournament I was considering him as Test captain. Less said about that now the better, but I do think he should go.
Shame Payne didn't have more time, I agree that one is unlikely.
Heaslip is the trickiest one. I think he's a presence we need on tour. That experience has been crucial last few years.
Said it before but maybe if Faletau goes as a 6, just like Farrell might go as a 12, there would be room for both Vunipola and Heaslip.
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Is Ringrose as good as Huw Jones?
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Despite the England game where Joseph destroyed him I would have Jones over Ringrose.
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He didn't destroy Jones he destroyed Dunbar.
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That performance Saturday added to fact he plays good at 6 too may bring him in to conversation
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When Henderson gets his head right and raises his aggression to what is needed in an Irish second row, he'll walk into most sides based on what a physical specimen he is. I think he's definitely a product of his enviornment and will respond to good leadership in the pack.
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I'm always a fan of selecting established units when it comes to picking a scratch team; especially is selection is otherwise pretty close between individual players.
Front Row - Irish
Second Row - English
Backrow - Welsh
Halfbacks - Irish
Centres... Irish/English
Back 3 - Scottish (maybe + Williams)
So:
McGrath
Best
Furlong
Itoje
Kruis
Warburton (c)
Tipuric
Faletau
Murray
Sexton
Williams
Henshaw
Joseph
Seymour
Hogg
A bit more variety inevitable from the bench, more Englishmen too...
MVunipola, Owens, Fagerson, Launchbury, BVunipola
Webb, Farrell, Daly
Front Row - Irish
Second Row - English
Backrow - Welsh
Halfbacks - Irish
Centres... Irish/English
Back 3 - Scottish (maybe + Williams)
So:
McGrath
Best
Furlong
Itoje
Kruis
Warburton (c)
Tipuric
Faletau
Murray
Sexton
Williams
Henshaw
Joseph
Seymour
Hogg
A bit more variety inevitable from the bench, more Englishmen too...
MVunipola, Owens, Fagerson, Launchbury, BVunipola
Webb, Farrell, Daly
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I'm probably goint to get a bit slated for this. But Sean O'Brien had a kind of average to poor 6 Nations. Personally I think he's still highly rated due to few years ago form. By no means done or anything. But anyway majority acknowledge that bit. But Faletau I think is equally over hyped lately. Again a good player. I probably don't rate him as high as some but may be because I didn't watch him as closely. But to me he's behind
Vunipola, Stander, Heaslip and I'd argue at times Hughes in no particular order.
Like Haskell I think is a backrow maybe underrated in this discussion. I think his return boosted England hugely.
Also hooker seems to be a very weak area for us but I wonder will we see a wildcard there. Obviously I'm looking at Niall Scannell as I'm seeing him every day. But he's flying it this year and a part of superb scrum at Munster and his basics as a hooker are on the money.
Equally ye guys will throw suggestions just as good. The point being will we see some guys who aren't necessarily srarters at international force their way in on club form
Vunipola, Stander, Heaslip and I'd argue at times Hughes in no particular order.
Like Haskell I think is a backrow maybe underrated in this discussion. I think his return boosted England hugely.
Also hooker seems to be a very weak area for us but I wonder will we see a wildcard there. Obviously I'm looking at Niall Scannell as I'm seeing him every day. But he's flying it this year and a part of superb scrum at Munster and his basics as a hooker are on the money.
Equally ye guys will throw suggestions just as good. The point being will we see some guys who aren't necessarily srarters at international force their way in on club form
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After the six nations I would like to see a squad of
1) Vunipola, McGrath, Marler,
2) Best, George, Owens,
3) Furlong, Cole, who the **** knows Fagerson
4) Itoje, AWJ,
5) Launchbury, Lawes/Henderson/Gray
6) Stander, POM, Haskell (for the personality would rather take Watson but Personalities can really help a tour)
7) Warburton, Tips
8) Vunipola, TF, Heaslip (just to keep Alpha happy)
9) Murray, Webb, Youngs,
10) Sexton, Faz,
11) Seymour, Nowell
12) Henshaw, Williams
13) JJ, Daly, Ringrose
14) Watson, North,
15) Hogg, Williams,
14/15 English
10/11 Irish
9 Welsh
3/4 Scottish
Test 23 of
1) McGrath, 2) Best, 3) Cole
4) Itoje, 5) Launchbury
6) Stander, 7) Warburton, 8) Vunipola
9) Murray, 10) Sexton
12) Henshaw, 13) JJ
11) Seymour, 14) Williams, 15) Hogg
16) George, 17) Vunipola, 18) Furlong
19) Gray, 20) TF
21) Webb, 22) Farrell, 23) Daly
1) Vunipola, McGrath, Marler,
2) Best, George, Owens,
3) Furlong, Cole, who the **** knows Fagerson
4) Itoje, AWJ,
5) Launchbury, Lawes/Henderson/Gray
6) Stander, POM, Haskell (for the personality would rather take Watson but Personalities can really help a tour)
7) Warburton, Tips
8) Vunipola, TF, Heaslip (just to keep Alpha happy)
9) Murray, Webb, Youngs,
10) Sexton, Faz,
11) Seymour, Nowell
12) Henshaw, Williams
13) JJ, Daly, Ringrose
14) Watson, North,
15) Hogg, Williams,
14/15 English
10/11 Irish
9 Welsh
3/4 Scottish
Test 23 of
1) McGrath, 2) Best, 3) Cole
4) Itoje, 5) Launchbury
6) Stander, 7) Warburton, 8) Vunipola
9) Murray, 10) Sexton
12) Henshaw, 13) JJ
11) Seymour, 14) Williams, 15) Hogg
16) George, 17) Vunipola, 18) Furlong
19) Gray, 20) TF
21) Webb, 22) Farrell, 23) Daly
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