(Very) early thoughts on the 2017 Lions

[Leonormous Boozer]

Hooker is a glaring weak spot again, Best is better than Hartley for me but both are fading, George followed by Scannell with Owens third choice is probably what I'd pick for a gruelling tour where fitness is key.

 

[brokenoses]

Hooker is a glaring weak spot again, Best is better than Hartley for me but both are fading, George followed by Scannell with Owens third choice is probably what I'd pick for a gruelling tour where fitness is key.

I would say the top 3 hookers in England are George, Taylor and Cowan-Dickie in no particular order. All have their strengths and weaknesses but all 3 are miles ahead of Hartley and Owens. I haven't seen enough of Scannell to say but I've seen Best throughly outplayed by Cowan-Dickie in the ECC. Saying that, I would put Best in the top spot because of the undoubtable grit, experience and leadership qualities that he has, all of which will be invaluable during the tour. Hartley fills that role for England in a sense but his time is rapidly drawing to a close. Of the 3 young English hookers, George would have the 16 shirt for me. Although I think Cowan Dickie is the better player, going from long injury layoffs and a few English caps to Lions hooker may be a bit too much for him.

 

[NickBD]

I think Warburton has put himself in lead for captain job, for me he's had an great 6N. I know ruled himself out of Wales cap but I think he can handle 1 Lions tour. Best/Hartley won't start, I think Gats will go with Jamie George Laidlaw is what 4th choice scrum half so won't be him. Leaves AWJ of home nations captains, I think Itoje/Jonny Gray will start over him in second row so AWJ won't start. Won't be be Billy V either, don't know if any Irish lads can say if CJ Stander who would start with Billy, Warburton in back row for me has ever captained Munster? if not leaves Sam for me.

 

[munstermuffin]

I think Warburton has put himself in lead for captain job, for me he's had an great 6N. I know ruled himself out of Wales cap but I think he can handle 1 Lions tour. Best/Hartley won't start, I think Gats will go with Jamie George Laidlaw is what 4th choice scrum half so won't be him. Leaves AWJ of home nations captains, I think Itoje/Jonny Gray will start over him in second row so AWJ won't start. Won't be be Billy V either, don't know if any Irish lads can say if CJ Stander who would start with Billy, Warburton in back row for me has ever captained Munster? if not leaves Sam for me.

CJ Stander captaimed Munster all last year and is vice captain of Munster. A natural leader. Last night I think himself and Warburton booked spots to NZ. Agree Warburton the favourite. However 1 question I'd ask is:
Warburton has returned to his worldclass best? Is this because he hasn't the pressures of being captain? He's playing top ball.

On hooker debate is it like a battle to not go. They're all playing awful

 

[RedruthRFC]

It's a bit of a left field shout, but I like the idea of Stander as captain. He's one of the few nailed on starters as things stand. I remember watching a clip of him mic'd up in the Pro12, it's a miracle that he manages to get any oxygen into his lungs the amount of talking that he does! He certainly sounded like a natural leader.

 

[McTallshort]

Yeah its not like hes South African or anything

 

[FLOBALOB]

CJ Stander captaimed Munster all last year and is vice captain of Munster. A natural leader. Last night I think himself and Warburton booked spots to NZ. Agree Warburton the favourite. However 1 question I'd ask is:
Warburton has returned to his worldclass best? Is this because he hasn't the pressures of being captain? He's playing top ball.

On hooker debate is it like a battle to not go. They're all playing awful

Surely Best has played himself out of The Captaincy, First XV and ,if it wasnt for all the others not stepping up ,maybe not making the tour.
George will probably end up hooker by default.

As for Stander, i've go to agree, virtually nailed on starter and i can,t believe you can still back him at 11/4 to start 1st test @ 6. Best bet ive seen for a long time.

 

[RedruthRFC]

Yeah its not like hes South African or anything

I must have missed the post that explains the relevance of this. Doesn't playing for Ireland make him eligible? Jones doesn't seem to have been put off Hartley by the fact that he's a Kiwi, so I don't see why Gatland should factor it into his decision making process, although he has only ever picked Welsh born captains for Wales.

 

[McTallshort]

Look hes eligible to play for Ireland fine its a poor system that England/Ireland/Austraila exploit but he is South African and we already have a Kiwi coach. Doesnt say much about NH rugby really does it

 

[RedruthRFC]

Surely Best has played himself out of The Captaincy, First XV and ,if it wasnt for all the others not stepping up ,maybe not making the tour.
George will probably end up hooker by default.

As for Stander, i've go to agree, virtually nailed on starter and i can,t believe you can still back him at 11/4 to start 1st test @ 6. Best bet ive seen for a long time.

As things stand, on form, yes, but I imagine that Gatland will value Best's experience and his form could improve (albeit not international form). After the autumn internationals, he'd have been a nailed on starter and on that basis, would have been my choice of captain. Based on experience and form shown in cameos, Scannell has looked the best hooker to me, but you couldn't put him as favourite to start.

- - - Updated - - -

Look hes eligible to play for Ireland fine its a poor system that England/Ireland/Austraila exploit but he is South African and we already have a Kiwi coach. Doesnt say much about NH rugby really does it

Or you could spin it the other way and say that it's a reflection on how fierce the competition for test places is. There is arguably a paucity of coaches though. I don't see why the home nations should hold themselves to any different standards to the rest of the rugby world or why the Lions should hold themselves to different standards to the home nations.

 

[McTallshort]

No the only spin is a poor system being exploited. It was bad enough when Flutey played for the Lions having played against them for the NZM now we are discussing selecting a south African as Lions captain? Sorry its a step to far

 

[munstermuffin]

Look hes eligible to play for Ireland fine its a poor system that England/Ireland/Austraila exploit but he is South African and we already have a Kiwi coach. Doesnt say much about NH rugby really does it

1. He's Irish per IRB views.
2. He's as eligible as others in similar styles before have been.

On captaincy I wouldn't say anyone nailed on. And in backrow if Lions was tomorrow CJ would be starting 6 but it in few months time so lets judge form then.

 

[McTallshort]

1. He's Irish per IRB views.
2. He's as eligible as others in similar styles before have been.

On captaincy I wouldn't say anyone nailed on. And in backrow if Lions was tomorrow CJ would be starting 6 but it in few months time so lets judge form then.

All true but it still doesnt make it right

 

[BobbyM]

It might be worth having a tour captain and a first xv captain. The first one you name early on and becomes the face of the lions, takes on the media duties etc. AWJ or Warbs would be perfect candidates. Both have lions experience and know what's its like to lead that group of players in your.

Then see from the players that tour who really steps up as a leader during training and prep games, then nominate your test captain. Of course have people in mind (Murray, Farrell, Gray for me) but actually see who takes on leadership roles and then make the call. It means you don't have to shoehorn in your tour captain into the team, so you can pick your best players.

 

[munstermuffin]

All true but it still doesnt make it right

True but Lions only there to obey laws. They not breaking any.

 

[McTallshort]

Again true but there is nothing stopping the Lions making a similer call as the French and make it 5 years instead of 3.

Its not a popular thing to say but you should not have a South African who is playing for Ireland thanks to a badly flawed system as Lions captain no matter how good he is.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Lions movements this week(my perspective). It's a bit one sided because this weekend the teams who were good were seriously good almost across the board and the reverse is true of the losing teams - awful in many positions. I'm not really talking about the dead certs who we already know are on the place such as Sexton and Murray.

Upwards

1. Warburton : I don't agree that he's quite returned to world class form but I do think he's stringing toward a set of high class consistent performances. Currently must be the favourite for lions captaincy and a starting berth.


2. Marler : Mostly a source of frustration and a general 'meh' for England fans over the last 4 years but recently has toned down the nonsense a bit and is really contributing to the team performances. As a reliable scrummager I'm starting to see him as a the 3rd loose head to get on the plane, although Healy could be a problem for him.

3. Kearney : With neither Brown nor Halfpenny lighting up anything at all, and Kearney putting in some rejuvenated performances he's in with a shout again of touring. His solidity and intelligence set him apart. Hogg is presumably still ahead of the pack but we need at least one more full-back. Biggest challenge to Kearney surely will be that with Norths resurgence, Liam Williams may come to be seen as a full-back option, to the possible exclusion of Kearney.

4. Lawes : I haven't considered Lawes a genuine contender for a lions place under the last two games. He's added to his all-round game by somehow increasing his physicality with ball in hand and his carrying. He also makes an incredible number of tackles. I think he and Henderson could end up in a bit of a battle. Kruis must be frustrated right now being unable to make a case.

5. Owens : I've rated him for a long while with his set-piece accuracy but also physicality. Think he's becoming the front-runner for the hooker jersey.

6. Nowell : With Seymour starting to get quit a bit of attention and speculation about his possible lions role I thought Nowell continued to show his reliability and ability to play an individual and team role. Still highly underrated. Watson looked really sharp and put Scotland under pressure but needs more time to press his case.

7. Itoje (as a 6) : I think we mostly prefer him as a lock and I for one was ambivalent about his early performances this tournament at 6 but he's grown into the role and is doing a lot of impactful work. He's showing his worth as a versatile squad player which is more important , since his lilihood of appearing at 6 is severely limited by that man CJ Stander.

8. North : I think he showed something we all needed to see - a confirmation of what we already knew which is that in a fired up side who actually look to care, he gives something no-one else can. It's very very very unlikely that he doesn't tour, and that's good.

9. Henshaw : Thought it was a mature showing from him with the exception of 'that maul'. I don't think Scott Williams is currently coming close to Henshaw or Farrell and Henshaws performance was also a bummer for Te'o.

10. Webb : Two scrum half places are up for grabs and 4 potentials - Youngs, Webb, Laidlaw and Care. I think Webb has done the most out of the four to push a case. Plays on the edge, generally marshals the pack well..has a couple of brain farts but right now he'd be my second choice scrum half after Murray. The first North try belonged to Webb - extremely flat pass as he's been doing all tournament, the support, the current running angle to beat the defender and then the perfect looped pass to North.

11. Joseph : Surely he's the favourite for the 13 spot. Throughout the tournament he has showed some strong defence and he's now reminded of his strengths with ball in hand.

12. Huw Jones : Maybe overstating it a little but I thought he was one of the few Scots to emerge with credit yesterday. I like a 13 with a compact frame like O Driscoll and he's extremely elusive as well as reliable in defence.

13. Alun-Wyn Jones : Powerful performance and reminder of his quality, almost as many tackles as the flankers and an intensity carrying and rucking.

14. Tipuric : The best out and out open side playing at the moment not including Warburton who is adapting to the 6 role. Haskell is offering a lot for England but he's not bringing the attributes of. a proper 7, whether or not that matters to you is another question.


Downwards

1. Best : Given his experience and all-round attributes I still think he's got to tour, but Imo he's been eclipsed by the likes of Ken Owens.

2. O'Brien : I still don't feel completely comfortable not having this guy on tour but it's true that he's been less evident around the place. Not making many metres per carry compared to Stander and not as much defensive workload compared to Heaslip.

3. Fagerson : Highly related but I don't think a guy penalised so heavily throughout the whole tournament can be a favourite to tour.

4. Biggar : He wasn't terrible but just confirmed that he's not capable of doing what a lions 10 would need. You could see he was really trying to influence things in attack with those really flat pop passes and a little more variety but he still struggled to get the right patterns.

5. Hamish Watson : Overshadowed and unable to impact the game. Thought Tipuric had a much better showing at 7. Having said this, the referee allowed England a lot of time at the breakdown so I hope too much isn't read into this game and that Watson finishes strongly against Italy.

 

[TheSaffycen]

My VX based just on this weeks games
1.Marler 13/0 tackles. And all of them physical, not sure the penalty against him was fair, but good performance again this week.
2.Owens 100% lineout accuracy. 15/0 tackles, 7 carries. Good for a hooker.
3.Furlong 13/0 tackles. 8 carries and 10 meters, all horrible and mean meters.
4.Launchbury 22/0 tackles. 21 meters and he's just class. On the plane and could be starting. (Thought Ryan of Ireland had a good game)
5.AWJ, stats don't tell the story. He was immense and though he missed 3 tackles, he made 18 mainly stopping the incredibly physical Ireland on the line.
6.Stander 15 carries 47 meters. He always takes the ball and he is just a bull of a man. 9 tackles as well. Itoje made a strong case, as did Warburton.
7.Tipuric 20/0 tackles, 9 lineouts (if ESPN are correct), 1 kick. Incredibly good player, has Warburton in the way of the 7 jersey IMO.
8.Hughes, He had 11 carries for 74m. Lucky the TMO said something to the ref, wont happen out in NZ. 10/1 tackles, not a great week for 8s though.
9.Webb, played brilliantly. 21 shirt should be his, Youngs played well but doesn't play with any consistency.
10.Sexton, though he got a yellow card he was immense on the pitch. He has more variety and can dictate better than possibly anyone in the world. Haven't seen Barrett behind a beaten pack too often. In the wars again though, can't he just stay in cotton wool. Ford played really well as well.
11.North 102m beat 8 defenders and 5 clean breaks. 2 tries and he was scary as hell on the ball. Back to what he can do, and with that one performance he's 100% on the plane.
12.Henshaw, Farrell was great as well. Henshaw apart from the maul penalty was great. 14 tackles 2 missed but god he left everything on that pitch. Ford or Sexton would want him outside them. Offers crashball and play making. Farrell had 9/10 kicks missing his 52m attempt just. Part of a great 10-12 axis.
13.Joseph. Probably going to have a lot of people disagreeing but I thought he was decent.... 126m from 9 carries 5/0 tackles 1 try assist and 3 tries. 4 clean breaks and 5 defenders beaten (probably all Dunbar)
14.Nowell, though he didn't score a try in a 7 try rout but he's always available to get the ball. Does every week what North done this week, looks for work and it helps out his team so much. Sweeped in behind for a Russell kick and it shows how he reads the game so well.
15.Brown made 104m, made ground when he got the ball but should've looked for the pass more often.

So the team is
1.Marler 2.Owens 3.Furlong
4.Launchbury 5.AWJ
6.Stander 7.Tipuric 8.Hughes
9.Webb 10.Sexton
11.North 12.Henshaw 13.Joseph 14.Nowell
15.Brown
16.George 17.McGrath 18.Francis 19.Ryan 20.Warburton 21.Youngs 22.Ford 23.Jones

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Brown at 15? He won't make the 37/38 squad IMO. I don't even like him as England full back.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Brown at 15? He won't make the 37/38 squad IMO. I don't even like him as England full back.

This is purely from this week. Halfpenny was good but made some simple mistakes, like knock ons and missed kicks. Kearney was alright but bumped off a couple of times. Scotland's 4 full backs weren't great.