(Very) early thoughts on the 2017 Lions

[munstermuffin]

Will Gatland pick a larger tour than last time considering it will be alot more brutal than Aus tour especially now All Blacks are released to play with clubs early on

 

[Maverick1987]

Will Gatland pick a larger tour than last time considering it will be alot more brutal than Aus tour especially now All Blacks are released to play with clubs early on

I think I would . Especially with the amount of competition for places . Let people earn a test place on the warm up games which as you say should be brutal and a really good test

 

[welshoptimist]

Will Gatland pick a larger tour than last time considering it will be alot more brutal than Aus tour especially now All Blacks are released to play with clubs early on

I think they can take as many as they like right? although to do so costs more money per head

 

[munstermuffin]

I think they can take as many as they like right? although to do so costs more money per head

Yeah costs are issue although it so financially good I doubt it'll factor much

 

[McTallshort]

Its one of the biggest cash cows in Rugby. They wouldnt mind a few extra players joining up

 

[ALJ]

You can definitely see the temptation for a large squad - a game every 3-4 days for the best part of a month!

On that basis, you have to think that two distinct sides will emerge and tbh, I'm not sure how a player transitions from the 'reserves' to the 'firsts' given that if you play well in one game you have no time whatsoever to recover for the one that immediately follows.

 

[ratsapprentice]

And the midweek sides are about as legit as they come.

 

[Maverick1987]

You can definitely see the temptation for a large squad - a game every 3-4 days for the best part of a month!

On that basis, you have to think that two distinct sides will emerge and tbh, I'm not sure how a player transitions from the 'reserves' to the 'firsts' given that if you play well in one game you have no time whatsoever to recover for the one that immediately follows.

To me all the warm up games are the same . It's all going towards having a shot at getting in the test team . If we want a chance at winning a test or dare I say it the series we need to have our form players playing

 

[welshoptimist]

You can definitely see the temptation for a large squad - a game every 3-4 days for the best part of a month!

On that basis, you have to think that two distinct sides will emerge and tbh, I'm not sure how a player transitions from the 'reserves' to the 'firsts' given that if you play well in one game you have no time whatsoever to recover for the one that immediately follows.

they should but I don't think they will take a larger squad, I don't know a lot about the other rugby unions in all honesty but if the wru is anything to go off, they like to squeeze as much profit out of it as they possibly can

 

[Maverick1987]

they should but I don't think they will take a larger squad, I don't know a lot about the other rugby unions in all honesty but if the wru is anything to go off, they like to squeeze as much profit out of it as they possibly can

Money won't even come into it . It will all depend on squad harmony etc to wether they take the extra players

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Will Gatland pick a larger tour than last time considering it will be alot more brutal than Aus tour especially now All Blacks are released to play with clubs early on

Gatland pretty much confirmed the initial size of the squad will be 37/38 in line with the previous 2 Lions tour.

 

[munstermuffin]

Gatland pretty much confirmed the initial size of the squad will be 37/38 in line with the previous 2 Lions tour.

I know but that was before All Blacks were being released back.
On side note if Gatland somehow is successful in series how would his legacy stand too?

 

[Bada-Bing!]

I know but that was before All Blacks were being released back.
On side note if Gatland somehow is successful in series how would his legacy stand too?

Nope he said it back on 4 February 2017 on BBC (during the Scotland v Ireland game), so he already knew then that ABs would be released to play in the mid week games. The way he said it he was pretty much fixed on an initial 37/38 man squad.

 

[munstermuffin]

Nope he said it back on 4 February 2017 on BBC, so he already knew then that ABs would be released to play in the mid week games. The way he said it he was pretty much fixed on a 37/38 man squad.

Well then I stand corrected. Just googled and saw ut was confirmed Feb 18 All Blacks could play.
Either way it tough as it brutal schedule

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

You can definitely see the temptation for a large squad - a game every 3-4 days for the best part of a month!

On that basis, you have to think that two distinct sides will emerge and tbh, I'm not sure how a player transitions from the 'reserves' to the 'firsts' given that if you play well in one game you have no time whatsoever to recover for the one that immediately follows.

This is a good point well made. I remember mulling that one over during the 2013 tour. Basically it means there is no such thing as being a 'bolter' during the tour. No-one really comes from left field to make it into the firsts unless theres a big injury crisis. The reserve matches can be useful gauge of some things but are generally used as a way of game time for players coming back from injury into contention. When players do graduate from one to the other it tends to be premeditated - Gatland knows he wants Faletau or Sean O'Brien to be involved in the test then he can play for 50 minutes or so and no more. But I think it's rare for the coach to actively change his mind based on a reserve game. See them as more a way for the coach to convince himself he's right!

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Well then I stand corrected. Just googled and saw ut was confirmed Feb 18 All Blacks could play.
Either way it tough as it brutal schedule

May well have been confirmed on February 18, but Hansen announced way back last year that ABs would be released for the early games. So Gatland would have been well aware this before he said what he did during the Scotland v Ireland game. He could well do a U turn and suddenly pick a 40-45 man squad, but I think it is unlikely. The reason is Gatland is a disciple of McGeechan who was on the 2005 Lions coaching team that lost so abysmally. Key lesson from that tour is if the squad and coaching team are too big it ruins the squad cohesion and harmony of the Lions. The whole divide the squad into "dirt trackers" and test team players doesn't work. Every player needs to feel they have a shot of making the test team. If that can't be created and built upon, the rest means sod all.

It is a brutal schedule, I agree, and until they sort out the calendar (post 2019) this is what the Lions have to deal with. It doesn't make it right and any player who makes the squad will likely be flogged and need 12-18 months to recover.

 

[munstermuffin]

May well have been confirmed on February 18, but Hansen announced way back last year that ABs would be released for the early games. So Gatland would have been well aware this before he said what he did during the Scotland v Ireland game. He could well do a U turn and suddenly pick a 40-45 man squad, but I think it is unlikely. The reason is Gatland is a disciple of McGeechan who was on the 2005 Lions coaching team that lost so abysmally. Key lesson from that tour is if the squad and coaching team are too big it ruins the squad cohesion and harmony of the Lions. The whole divide the squad into "dirt trackers" and test team players doesn't work. Every player needs to feel they have a shot of making the test team. If that can't be created and built upon, the rest means sod all.

It is a brutal schedule, I agree, and until they sort out the calendar (post 2019) this is what the Lions have to deal with. It doesn't make it right and any player who makes the squad will likely be flogged and need 12-18 months to recover.

Don't disagree with any of that.
On squad there has to be balance too like can't be too big and lessons from 2005 will have been learnt

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Interesting decision around hookers'

Last time Gatland preferred Hartley to Best, despite the opinion of this forum.
Since then, can we say that Best has got better or Hartley has got worse?
Discipline wil come into it of course, those are grounds on which to not take Hartley, and there are more options now in general - but I'm partly just wondering whether Gatland would make the same call now.

 

[ALJ]

To me all the warm up games are the same . It's all going towards having a shot at getting in the test team . If we want a chance at winning a test or dare I say it the series we need to have our form players playing

Yep, that's the traditional logic and how it should be.

But thinking of player welfare, given the quality of the sides they're playing in the lead up to the tests, can you expect them to recover in 2-3 days to play again?

It seems unlikely (or at least not particularly sensible) and so, subs aside, you have to think two distinct sides will emerge quite early on because there's not really much choice.


I must admit, I remember hearing that the schedule was a bit crazy but didn't really look at it until this week - wasn't a pleasant surprise!

- - - Updated - - -

On squad there has to be balance too like can't be too big and lessons from 2005 will have been learnt

Can definitely see your point here.

I was going to say that 2005 wasn't as bad in terms of the fixtures but looking back at them, it was just as bad.

I guess the difference might be that the game 12 years on is more demanding so you need more playing resources but who knows...

 

[Which Tyler]

This is a good point well made. I remember mulling that one over during the 2013 tour. Basically it means there is no such thing as being a 'bolter' during the tour. No-one really comes from left field to make it into the firsts unless theres a big injury crisis. The reserve matches can be useful gauge of some things but are generally used as a way of game time for players coming back from injury into contention. When players do graduate from one to the other it tends to be premeditated - Gatland knows he wants Faletau or Sean O'Brien to be involved in the test then he can play for 50 minutes or so and no more. But I think it's rare for the coach to actively change his mind based on a reserve game. See them as more a way for the coach to convince himself he's right!

Sounds absolutely perfect for Gatland; he's never yet shown an ability to change his mind once decided.