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(Very) early thoughts on the 2017 Lions

munstermuffin said:
No the bench is there to be used and should be. Big thing now is teams finish stronger than they start.
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This is true. The starting 15 isn't necessarily the strongest 15. One or two on here were questioning Cotter's decision to start Hardie ahead of Watson against Wales but it was the right thing to do as Watson came on and gave a less than fresh Warburton a beat down. Impact in the second half is key as results don't get closed out in the first half.
 
TRF_Peat said:
Furlong's a long way ahead of the others on carrying and I think Lee is notably the worst of them as a scrummager, although not by much.
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Furlong is the only guaranteed starter to my mind. Rock solid in the scrums and his carrying is awesome, everyone knows what's coming but impossible to stop him making metres.

1) Mako
2) Best(c)
3) Furlong
4) Launchbury
5) Jonny Gray
6) SOB
7) Watson
8 ) Faletau

9) Murray
10) Sexton
11) Nowell
12) Henshaw
13) Joseph
14) Williams
15) Hogg

16) George
17) McGrath
18) Lee
19) Henderson or whoever that punchy Irish lock is
20) Billy V
21) Webb
22) Farrell
23) Daly

My stab at a 23, I've probably horribly under represented the Nations I don't watch much.
8 English, 8 Irish, 3 Scottish, 4 Welsh
 
munstermuffin said:
No the bench is there to be used and should be. Big thing now is teams finish stronger than they start.
@Tallshort that is exactly the point. Corbs was flogged
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Yes I know, just wish it wasn't so. Used to be a good feeling coming out on top of a good tussle after an hour and then making the opponent's life a misery for the last 20. And horrible the other way round. Scrummaging is a direct mano o mano attritional contest that I'd prefer to see play out over the course of a whole game. But sadly those days are gone.

As for Corbs, I'm with Rats. He was just one of the fragile ones. Shame, best LH scrummager we've had in ages.
 
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Orange said:
Furlong is the only guaranteed starter to my mind. Rock solid in the scrums and his carrying is awesome, everyone knows what's coming but impossible to stop him making metres.

1) Mako
2) Best(c)
3) Furlong
4) Launchbury
5) Jonny Gray
6) SOB
7) Watson
8 ) Faletau

9) Murray
10) Sexton
11) Nowell
12) Henshaw
13) Joseph
14) Williams
15) Hogg

16) George
17) McGrath
18) Lee
19) Henderson or whoever that punchy Irish lock is
20) Billy V
21) Webb
22) Farrell
23) Daly

My stab at a 23, I've probably horribly under represented the Nations I don't watch much.
8 English, 8 Irish, 3 Scottish, 4 Welsh
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Pretty good although some picks are based on previous form and reputation. Assuming they (Faletau, Mako) can re-discover their form and fitness, the only changes I would make would be as follows:

12. Farrell (harsh to be drop out after one ropey game against Italy where he wasn't the only underperformer)
13. Henshaw (I know he's primarily a 12 but against the AB's this can work given the pace in the back 3 unless Joseph makes a case in the final two games)
14. Seymour has done more than Nowell so far (if we disregard performances against Italy) but let's see how both do in the final two games.
19. At least one of Itoje and Kruis have to be in the 23.

That aside, I can't see Jonny Gray ousting AWJ purely because of the Gatland factor.
 
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TRF_Peat said:
No successful rugby coach puts too high a price on being fair in selection and the Lions aren't for the 30-odd most in form players in the British Isles.

If Gatland can't find 4 wingers who he thinks are showing the form and ability to be big parts of a NZ beating side, he might as well take North in a hail mary hope that he can refind form. If he doesn't, you just stick him in the dirt trackers and you've lost nothing anyway. Although I suspect that's how it ends if he does go.

Also Cole should absolutely go as there's not three better scrummagers available.
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Agree that Gatlands mission is to somehow plan a winning tour rather than to be fair to everyone. But there is a possible argument that the lions ideal is firmly built on merit and fairness. You could also argue that going by this idea is a helpful principle for sorting through a player base four times as large. Not saying I would completely agree with those positions but maybe they are considerations.

Otherwise I count 3 Scottish, 2 Irish, 4 English and 1 Welsh winger in better form than North. Despite that, I still wouldn't feel comfortable leaving him behind. He's the only one of the bunch who can go through as well as around defenders, with the possible exception of Visser.
 
Orange said:
Furlong is the only guaranteed starter to my mind. Rock solid in the scrums and his carrying is awesome, everyone knows what's coming but impossible to stop him making metres.

1) Mako
2) Best(c)
3) Furlong
4) Launchbury
5) Jonny Gray
6) SOB
7) Watson
8 ) Faletau

9) Murray
10) Sexton
11) Nowell
12) Henshaw
13) Joseph
14) Williams
15) Hogg

16) George
17) McGrath
18) Lee
19) Henderson or whoever that punchy Irish lock is
20) Billy V
21) Webb
22) Farrell
23) Daly

My stab at a 23, I've probably horribly under represented the Nations I don't watch much.
8 English, 8 Irish, 3 Scottish, 4 Welsh
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Good side, definitely switch Mako and McGrath around. Where you have a tough call between two players, take the chance to keep whole units together e.g the Irish front row. Incidentally I don't believe it is that tough a call between McGrath and Mako right now.

Faletau would be lucky to get that starting berth if he can't even start for Wales. Right now it's Heaslip - Vunipola B needs gametime so we can see where he's at. Talk of Moriarty starting at 8 for lions is ridiculous and embarrassing.

Undecided about midfield. Josephs defence could be nice against the best attacking side in the world, but otherwise Daly is better right now. But that won't be recognised as he's not playing there.
 
1. McGrath
2. Best
3. Furlong
4. Awj
5. Itoje
6. Stander
7. Sob
8. Vunipola
9. Murray
10. Sexton
11. Williams
12. Farrell
13. Daly
14. Nowell
15. Hogg

16. Mako
17. Nel/cole
18. Hartley
19. Gray/launchbury
20. Robshaw/warburton
21. Youngs
22. Henshaw
23. North

Feels like I need more scots but can't see where.

Like it or not I think Farrell will be one of Gatland's first picks, whether at 10 or 12 is more a matter of other combinations. Can even see him nabbing the captaincy.

There's something special about Daly. Plus he can cover the back 3.

I like to think we've got a chance. Hopefully will be a great watch either way.
 
As it stands mine would be

1. McGrath
2. George
3. Furlong
4. Itoje
5. J. Gray
6. Stander
7. Warburton (c)
8. Billy Vunipola
9. Murray
10. Sexton
11. Daly
12. Farrell
13. Joseph
14. Liam Williams
15. Hogg
16. Best
17. Mako Vunipola
18. Cole/Nel
19. AWJ
20. SOB
21. Webb
22. Henshaw
23. Nowell

My 22 and 23 picks allow for the whole backfield to be covered in case of injury

The only thing that might slightly worry me is the line out with having only 2 1/2 jumpers . Irish fans does Stander chip in at the lineout ? Seems a big guy to be lifting often .....
 
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In fairness CJ is a solid lineout operator and is used alot. Has a very good record but is small for a jumper
 
In that case then I'm happier with the line out . Itoje and Gray are world class there and Warbs and CJ can chip in
 
Groundhog said:
He's too small to be a backrow too. Let's put him at hooker from now on.
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I think stander would make one hell of an old fashioned hard hitting 6, thing is Ireland are blessed in that department because Henderson at 6 is a beast
 
Saint4805 said:
Pretty good although some picks are based on previous form and reputation. Assuming they (Faletau, Mako) can re-discover their form and fitness, the only changes I would make would be as follows:

12. Farrell (harsh to be drop out after one ropey game against Italy where he wasn't the only underperformer)
13. Henshaw (I know he's primarily a 12 but against the AB's this can work given the pace in the back 3 unless Joseph makes a case in the final two games)
14. Seymour has done more than Nowell so far (if we disregard performances against Italy) but let's see how both do in the final two games.
19. At least one of Itoje and Kruis have to be in the 23.

That aside, I can't see Jonny Gray ousting AWJ purely because of the Gatland factor.
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I'd just point out Re. Nowell that he has scored 0.52 tries per international game, the best of any NH international winger. Watson is 2nd on 0.5. Like it or hate it, English wingers are the top try scorers of the NH wingers.
 
ragerancher said:
I'd just point out Re. Nowell that he has scored 0.52 tries per international game, the best of any NH international winger. Watson is 2nd on 0.5. Like it or hate it, English wingers are the top try scorers of the NH wingers.
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I imagine England have scored more tries than the Scots too in games Nowell has played v Seymour? Then you have guys in Keith Earls,Tommy Bowe and George North who are the only wings with 20+ tries and none of them deserve to be anywhere near the plane! Try scoring for a wing isn't hugely important, Liam Williams has a particularly poor try scoring record but is definitely the form winger with the amount of work he gets done all over the pitch. My picks for wing would be Nowell, Seymour, Williams and Trimble prior to injury, I think industrious and dependable guys are needed to beat NZ (Based on the only game they've lost in 20 months (Zebo was playing the role well at the time)) and Gatland has plenty of options. If he wants a gamebreaker I'd place my hopes on Watson, considering he has a bit more about him than North who is either devastating or inconsequential and rarely in-between!
 
Groundhog said:
He's too small to be a backrow too. Let's put him at hooker from now on.
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Not too small to be a backrower but in Munsters stats he is our smallest regular jumper of the pro era. Regular jumper counting as taken more than x amount over x games.
More shows how good he is that we use him so much dispite size but his strongest areas of game are elsewhere as he says himself
 
The Alpha Bro said:
I imagine England have scored more tries than the Scots too in games Nowell has played v Seymour? Then you have guys in Keith Earls,Tommy Bowe and George North who are the only wings with 20+ tries and none of them deserve to be anywhere near the plane! Try scoring for a wing isn't hugely important, Liam Williams has a particularly poor try scoring record but is definitely the form winger with the amount of work he gets done all over the pitch. My picks for wing would be Nowell, Seymour, Williams and Trimble prior to injury, I think industrious and dependable guys are needed to beat NZ (Based on the only game they've lost in 20 months (Zebo was playing the role well at the time)) and Gatland has plenty of options. If he wants a gamebreaker I'd place my hopes on Watson, considering he has a bit more about him than North who is either devastating or inconsequential and rarely in-between!
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I think Seymour has to go with the lions, he can score from nothing and is great in the air, id also be tempted to take maitland, he isn't as flashy but in my opinion the best defensive winger out there, great at covering the back field . and helps out the full back enough that they don't have to worry as much when attacking
 

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