(Very) early thoughts on the 2017 Lions

[lionsno9]

My starting XV would look something like this:

1 M Vunupola / J McGrath
2 D Hartley (Captain)
3 WP Nel
4 J Gray
5 M Itoje
6 S Warburton
7 H Watson
8 B Vunupola / Heaslip / Faleteau
9 C Murray
10 J Sexton
11 G North
12 O Farrell
13 R Henshaw
14 T Seymour
15 S Hogg

Hard as nails front row.
Athletic Second Row / massive work rate
Ball winning Flankers.
Big Carrying 8.
Established 9 /10 link up. Class
Farrells defensive organisation and goal kicking.
Expansive outer backs who are also good in the air.
Hoggys x factor.

Captain is a hard choice but we will need Hartleys aggressive no holds barred approach against the uncompromising All Blacks.

 

[Saint4805]

I'm surprised Fraser Brown hasn't been mentioned as an option at 2. He has been flanked by two inexperienced props for most of the campaign and so will probably have been tarred with the 'weak Scottish front row' brush. He has been great in the loose and his throwing has been bang on the money.

 

[lionsno9]

Good shout. I think he would be in contention for a seat on the plane. Maybe just out of the reckoning but possible injury replacement.

 

[Maverick1987]

My starting XV would look something like this:

1 M Vunupola / J McGrath
2 D Hartley (Captain)
3 WP Nel
4 J Gray
5 M Itoje
6 S Warburton
7 H Watson
8 B Vunupola / Heaslip / Faleteau
9 C Murray
10 J Sexton
11 G North
12 O Farrell
13 R Henshaw
14 T Seymour
15 S Hogg

Hard as nails front row.
Athletic Second Row / massive work rate
Ball winning Flankers.
Big Carrying 8.
Established 9 /10 link up. Class
Farrells defensive organisation and goal kicking.
Expansive outer backs who are also good in the air.
Hoggys x factor.

Captain is a hard choice but we will need Hartleys aggressive no holds barred approach against the uncompromising All Blacks.

I quite like this although I'd swap Hartley for Best or George, Nel for Furlong, North for Daly and maybe Seymour for Nowell or Visser

 

[lionsno9]

Wouldn't have a problem with best for Hartley although I like idea of having Hartley in there for his nasty streak. ( I think we will probably need it). I've not seen a lot of George.
I wouldn't swap out Nel. I like Furlong and will be interested to see how he shapes up on tour but if Nel proves fitness he must play. He is a rock at scrum time. You only need to look at how the scotland scrum is struggling without him.
Daly must be playing himself into contention. How is he under the high ball? He's not a natural winger is he? A fully fit and flying George north I feel would have to start.
I rate Tommy Seymour (Boyd) is the best wing in the northern hemisphere imo. He's good at all aspects of wing play and can finish. Brilliant at interceptions as well. I don't think Visser should tour. He doesn't use his size well enough. Brilliant finisher but not convinced on his all round game. In saying that he played well against Wales, although not sure how fit North was. I like Nowell but don't think he is at the same level as North or Seymour. Good to have so many options though.

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

George North hasn't been fit or flying for a long time. I'm starting to feel for the poor kid. I'd have, in no particular order, Zebo, Seymour, Visser, Daly, Nowell, Watson, May and Liam Williams ahead of him currently.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

You're right Orange. If fairness matters to Gatland, North doesn't tour.

Re. Daly, he's good to very good under the high ball. Best position is probably 13 followed by fullback and last and very much least, on the wing. However its taken Dai Young 4 years to work out his best position so I'm not surprised that Eddie Jones is still unsure.
.Not quite comfortable with Seymour being described as the best northern hemisphere winger just yet. Starting to think Dan Cole shouldn't tour. Not a smart player, absolute penalty machine

 

[UlsterRugby2012]

Wouldn't have a problem with best for Hartley although I like idea of having Hartley in there for his nasty streak. ( I think we will probably need it). I've not seen a lot of George.
I wouldn't swap out Nel. I like Furlong and will be interested to see how he shapes up on tour but if Nel proves fitness he must play. He is a rock at scrum time. You only need to look at how the scotland scrum is struggling without him.
Daly must be playing himself into contention. How is he under the high ball? He's not a natural winger is he? A fully fit and flying George north I feel would have to start.
I rate Tommy Seymour (Boyd) is the best wing in the northern hemisphere imo. He's good at all aspects of wing play and can finish. Brilliant at interceptions as well. I don't think Visser should tour. He doesn't use his size well enough. Brilliant finisher but not convinced on his all round game. In saying that he played well against Wales, although not sure how fit North was. I like Nowell but don't think he is at the same level as North or Seymour. Good to have so many options though.

That proves how weak Scotland's back up is, more than anything else, no? I don't think you could say he's a much better scrummager than Furlong - and not as good around the park. Also, a neck injury is very serious for a prop. I'd say it is very doubtful he'll make the 23.

 

[Peat]

You're right Orange. If fairness matters to Gatland, North doesn't tour.

Re. Daly, he's good to very good under the high ball. Best position is probably 13 followed by fullback and last and very much least, on the wing. However its taken Dai Young 4 years to work out his best position so I'm not surprised that Eddie Jones is still unsure.
.Not quite comfortable with Seymour being described as the best northern hemisphere winger just yet. Starting to think Dan Cole shouldn't tour. Not a smart player, absolute penalty machine

No successful rugby coach puts too high a price on being fair in selection and the Lions aren't for the 30-odd most in form players in the British Isles.

If Gatland can't find 4 wingers who he thinks are showing the form and ability to be big parts of a NZ beating side, he might as well take North in a hail mary hope that he can refind form. If he doesn't, you just stick him in the dirt trackers and you've lost nothing anyway. Although I suspect that's how it ends if he does go.

Also Cole should absolutely go as there's not three better scrummagers available.

 

[lionsno9]

There's still time for North to prove fitness and get back some form before squad is announced. He's been there before and done it. If he is taking 7 back 3 players I would be happy to see Rob Kearney, hogg and Liam Williams with North, Seymour and 2 of the English wings. Not sure who is the best 2 options at the moment?

Scottish scrum was solid last 6 nations and at world cup. Point taken about back up players. Missing Al Dickinson and WP. Fagerson is a prospect but maybe not a top level scrummager just yet. Think he is only 20 or 21 so plenty of time for improvement hopefully. He shows up well in the loose.

What age is Furlong, about 24? If Nel gets back playing I would def take him on tour, then see who is playing better out there.

- - - Updated - - -

You're right Orange. If fairness matters to Gatland, North doesn't tour.

Re. Daly, he's good to very good under the high ball. Best position is probably 13 followed by fullback and last and very much least, on the wing. However its taken Dai Young 4 years to work out his best position so I'm not surprised that Eddie Jones is still unsure.
.Not quite comfortable with Seymour being described as the best northern hemisphere winger just yet. Starting to think Dan Cole shouldn't tour. Not a smart player, absolute penalty machine

I think Daly will go on tour. Sounds as though he can cover a few positions and he's bang in form. I think Cole will be in as well. Not a whole lot of options.

 

[corny]

Behind Murray Furlong is the most obvious selection in the team for me. Locks out every scrum, brilliant carrier, brilliant work rate and he'll give you 80 minutes of that if you ask him. Nel is good scrummager but its a no brainer imo.

 

[munstermuffin]

Behind Murray Furlong is the most obvious selection in the team for me. Locks out every scrum, brilliant carrier, brilliant work rate and he'll give you 80 minutes of that if you ask him. Nel is good scrummager but its a no brainer imo.

At this level no front row player should be giving full 80. There should be enough class to fire up an impact off bench

 

[lionsno9]

Behind Murray Furlong is the most obvious selection in the team for me. Locks out every scrum, brilliant carrier, brilliant work rate and he'll give you 80 minutes of that if you ask him. Nel is good scrummager but its a no brainer imo.

Murray and hogg 2 most obvious for me

 

[McTallshort]

There is little to choose between the top 4 props in each of the 4 nations. They can all scrummage, they can all carry at that level and their performance is down alot to who's pushing behind them in the scrum. The key is how they tour and handle the mental strain of so much top rugby in a fairly hostile environment. That is more important than individual performances against player X in a certain game.

 

[munstermuffin]

The big worry for props is how much they are flogged. Gatland likes these tough sessions and mix that with matches which look tough and it could work out being great or very bad.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

At this level no front row player should be giving full 80.

Yes they should, every flipping one of them. Real bugbear of mine.

 

[McTallshort]

The big worry for props is how much they are flogged. Gatland likes these tough sessions and mix that with matches which look tough and it could work out being great or very bad.

Remember a certain English LH who had to retire not long after the 2013 tour...

 

[ratsapprentice]

That was a problem specific to him - he's unlucky to be one of those fragile players.

 

[Peat]

There is little to choose between the top 4 props in each of the 4 nations. They can all scrummage, they can all carry at that level and their performance is down alot to who's pushing behind them in the scrum. The key is how they tour and handle the mental strain of so much top rugby in a fairly hostile environment. That is more important than individual performances against player X in a certain game.

Furlong's a long way ahead of the others on carrying and I think Lee is notably the worst of them as a scrummager, although not by much.

 

[munstermuffin]

Yes they should, every flipping one of them. Real bugbear of mine.

No the bench is there to be used and should be. Big thing now is teams finish stronger than they start.
@Tallshort that is exactly the point. Corbs was flogged