(Very) early thoughts on the 2017 Lions

[Peat]

Tougher matches also increase the risk of injury and fatigue. Sorry but the tour schedule is just to intense and should never have been agreed.

Nothing in life is risk free.

I think there is a call for less matches, but once the match is there, I'd rather it was as high a quality as possible. I'd rather take the increased risk of losing a key player and have a more hardened unit.

 

[Saint4805]

Nothing in life is risk free.

I think there is a call for less matches, but once the match is there, I'd rather it was as high a quality as possible. I'd rather take the increased risk of losing a key player and have a more hardened unit.

I'll be amazed if 14 of the 'first choice' 15 are lining up for the three tests. I would expect more casualties with that schedule and wouldn't be surprised if we lose 3-4 first choice players ahead of the first test.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

I'll be amazed if 14 of the 'first choice' 15 are lining up for the three tests. I would expect more casualties with that schedule and wouldn't be surprised if we lose 3-4 first choice players ahead of the first test.

Based on prior Lions tours you are likely right, which is why it is best for the Lions team to play the tests should grow organically as the tour progresses. Although on paper we know there are certain "test match animals", who have proven themselves in the past, these players still have to earn the right to wear that test jersey come that first, then second and third tests. So whilst there are "first choice" on paper and in people's minds the reality is that form and injuries curtail such a first choice players and why bolters who don't even make the original squad suddenly come in and make the test team i.e. Martin Corry in 2001; Ryan Jones in 2005; Tom Croft in 2009 and Corbisiero in 2013 spring to mind.

 

[Five Meters Out]

Seems this tour could be even tougher than first thought - it now seems that in the early games against the Super Rugby sides (Blues, Crusaders & Highlanders), the franchises will have access to their All Blacks.
http://m.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11703794

Oh dear! To all intents and purposes that will put these games at NZ Super rugby "local derby" level. That's not much below Test match level. It's a real old fashioned NZ/Sth African type tour, where they're softened up before the BBQ.

 

[Shaggy]

Oh dear! To all intents and purposes that will put these games at NZ Super rugby "local derby" level. That's not much below Test match level. It's a real old fashioned NZ/Sth African type tour, where they're softened up before the BBQ.

I'm not sure that the intent would change, even if he All Blacks weren't playing to be honest, we saw with the Chiefs side that played Wales earlier this year, the desire to win, and to press for higher honours, even if it was a regular spot in the Chiefs side, so, what I'm saying is, they will be hard matches/very physical, regardless of who gets selected to play the lions.

It's really just designed to give the All Black players some game time before the tests, but I would expect some "feed back" from the All Blacks coaching staff, to their Super Rugby counterparts as to which of the AB's players need the game time.

For example, had the tour occurred this year, I would have expected that Hansen and co, would have said to Chris Boyd to play Julian Savea in the starting line up against the Lions, even though he couldn't force his way into the Hurricanes starting line up, for the closing stages of the SR competition

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

So Gatland in charge how many welsh players will be in it?

I reckon
Baldwin
Jenkins
Lee
AWJ (Captain)
Charteris
Lydiate
Warburton
Tipuric
Faletau
Webb
Davies
Bigger
Roberts
Davies
North
Williams
Halfpenny

Wouldn't be surprised to see Charteris, Preistland, Morgan,

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

So Gatland in charge how many welsh players will be in it?

I reckon
Baldwin
Jenkins
Lee
AWJ (Captain)
Charteris
Lydiate
Warburton
Tipuric
Faletau
Webb
Davies
Bigger
Roberts
Davies
North
Williams
Halfpenny

Wouldn't be surprised to see Charteris, Preistland, Morgan,

Pick the guy who just toured NZ and didn't force the All Blacks out of second gear when they were at their most vulnerable... This could be the worst Lions tour ever, I wonder what the odds on them losing 5+ games are because I'd be straight on to that if it was anyway generous.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Wow, didn't see that coming. I assume that means Wonderbread as captain then.

Pick the guy who just toured NZ and didn't force the All Blacks out of second gear when they were at their most vulnerable... This could be the worst Lions tour ever, I wonder what the odds on them losing 5+ games are because I'd be straight on to that if it was anyway generous.

In fairness, different players. But yes, for all the talk of how because he's a Kiwi he "knows how the Kiwis think" etc., he's shown significantly less indication that he knows how to be competitive against the All Blacks than Stuart Lancaster, now universally agreed to have been a **** coach. (Good luck with the Pro12, by the way)

 

[TRF_Olyy]

With the exception of a 2 year stint, with Waikato, Gatland's spent the last 27 years coaching in Europe. People suggesting he's got some great insight into the All Blacks are off their rocker.

I'm interested to see who his coaches are because Gatland's record against SH sides is dreadful.

 

[Shaggy]

With the exception of a 2 year stint, with Waikato, Gatland's spent the last 27 years coaching in Europe. People suggesting he's got some great insight into the All Blacks are off their rocker.

I'm interested to see who his coaches are because Gatland's record against SH sides is dreadful.

Genuine question here, because I really don't know, but suppose Gats picks a mostly English players, because they are the dominant 6N side at he moment, would they (or the Irish/Scottish), but into his coaching style.

He does have that Lions success against Australia too Olyy

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Genuine question here, because I really don't know, but suppose Gats picks a mostly English players, because they are the dominant 6N side at he moment, would they (or the Irish/Scottish), but into his coaching style.

He does have that Lions success against Australia too Olyy

The last lions tour is what upgrades him from "****ing dreadful" to "dreadful".

I hope we don't use Gatland's style (hence me being so interested in the other coaches) as Gatland's playstyle isnt going to work against the all blacks.
When you consider the quality of some of the backs he's got to choose from, to play Warrenball would be criminal.

 

[Gavin]

Gatland confirmed as Lions coach

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/37295281

 

[MojoPin]

Queue the endless Gatland-bashing from here until the end of the tour. Sigh. Already seen some golden comments out there...

"Well that kills any interest I had in this tour"

If the coach alone destroys the idea of supporting the best players from the NH, then you are no rugby fan.

"Damages the Lions and is a crap coach...don't mention the last tour as anything less than 0-3 was a failure in my eyes and he has never put Wales near the top of the rankings"

Is this guy high? Wales made it to a high of #2 under Gats I believe (a general blip but have consistently kept their ranking high since he came on board - once again a case of people thinking anything outside the top 3 is 'low').

"Anyone but him. Should have picked a non international coach to learn and gain experience"

To...gain...experience!? This is the Lions, not the SWALEC cup. Good grief.

"Will struggle to support a team he is involved in"

As with others then, I question your integrity.

------------

Now, don't get me wrong - I'm not Gatland's biggest fan. Far from it. But the amount of crap he endures from the rugby community is rather excessive. With the right players and the right support staff he has as good a chance as anyone else of guiding the Lions to victory. No, I don't think it'll happen. But I'm going to enjoy watching our best players give it their all under a united banner.

 

[ncurd]

Is this guy high? Wales made it to a high of #2 under Gats I believe (a general blip but have consistently kept their ranking high since he came on board - once again a case of people thinking anything outside the top 3 is 'low').

wasn't it also under Gatland that your dropped to 9th in the world?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

TBF Gatland is prob the must biased one eyed coach in world rugby ATM I mean FFS he picked Cuthbert for the 2013 tour!!!!!!

He is so overrated.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

We still have end of year tests and a 6N to decide form but I've seen more than a few Welsh who seem to think Halfpenny should just waltz right back in at 15. I'm pretty sure the last person we want at 15 is one who will just boot every ball he gets right back at the ABs, they love it when that happens. We don't need him for his goal kicking either unless Biggar and Farrell both are injured. Also there is the question of mentality. The current crop of Welsh players very recently got royally done over by the ABs and the club side and England leading into that. They have Australia, South Africa, Argentina and Japan to play before the Lions but losses there could seriously damage their confidence, they already have the worst record against the SH of any Lions team.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

TBF Gatland is prob the must biased one eyed coach in world rugby ATM I mean FFS he picked Cuthbert for the 2013 tour!!!!!!

He is so overrated.

To be fair Cuthbert has been exposed as a bit of Donkey since 2013, the year he actually played well and scored tries at international level.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Genuine question here, because I really don't know, but suppose Gats picks a mostly English players, because they are the dominant 6N side at he moment, would they (or the Irish/Scottish), but into his coaching style.

Isn't it the other way round and he has to adapt his style to suit the players that are available?

Olyy's absolutely right that his record against the SH is awful, so there seems little point in putting out Wales or Wales lite. Yes the Lions won last time out, but while Aus can be bullied at times the ABs can't. Playing Warrenball would be damage limitation not an attempt to win.

 

[ncurd]

Overall I struggle to think of another option because that leads us to Lancaster.

My problem he has proven with both Wales and the Lions he's very much a "stick with who he knows coach". He seems unwilling to accept other players in a particular position might be better than his chosen ones.

This is not for Wales (see Cuthbert) but is double a problem on a Lions tour which he saw as augmenting his Wales side rather than picking the best 22 players of four nations.

Also beating Oz 4 years ago was hardly along the challenge of beating NZ in a years time.

Next year it's quite possible (but nowhere near a given) that England could be on an unbeaten run that's lasted over a year. It's quite possible Ireland will be above the pecking order in terms of teams as well. I think it's fair to worry Gats will do what he did last time.

Plus as noted Warrenball is a proven failure agains the ABs.


I'l support the team I just wish we had a better choice for coach.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Rather had Schmidt TBH.