(Very) early thoughts on the 2017 Lions

[Bada-Bing!]

Scrumhalf - Webb's a better sniping Scrumhalf then Murray, but his decision making is questionable under pressure. If Sexton can recapture his form next season, I'm more inclined to start with Murray. What with his greater understanding with Sexton and also his past Lions experience. The kicking game will also be important in NZ. Not knowing enough about Scrumhalf box kicking I'll let others comment which player is the superior.

Fly-half. - if the Lions want a play making 10 who can get the back line moving then I think Sexton and Ford are in pole position. Bigger sits too deep for me and doesn't take it close enough to the gain line consistently enough.

Farrell, I don't know where comes into the equation, but I'm thinking at 12 if Ford is selected at 10. However, Roberts is Wales defensive captain in the backs and I'd be shocked if Gatland did not take him.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I'd rather see Murray start to control the game with Webb come on after 50-60 minutes to snipe against tired defences.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Well your in for a treat then. Jim Telfer is worth watching it for alone as is Simon Shaw dressed as "Bruce"

Just watched it. Yep, really enjoyed it. Very funny moments as you said - Telfer is magnificent. I think it's more in depth and better than the 2013 Lions Raw video, I felt I got much more insight into players thinking before and during matches. This should be the standard that the 2017 RAW/living with Lions should aspire to.

 

[j'nuh]

Perhaps repeating myself from 4 years ago, but I really hope Laidlaw goes on the tour.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

What's people's thinking about looking at units rather than individuals?

Like a Murray and sexton combo?

Or an Itoje kruis combo opposed to 1 player who might be slightly better. When you have a greater understanding does it negate the 1-2% better player?

Just wondered as I would be more inclined with the short amount of time available to the squad to use units.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

I personally think for the backs the "units" thinking is more appropriate than for the forwards, where it's all about balance I.e. Regardless of nationality. So Murray/Sexton, Roberts/Davies would have it's advantages.

 

[BPM]

I agree with this. ATM Lee's in front of Hill, but vs NZ he looked slow and lazy, even for a THP. Hill on the other hand is fast and has a high work rate. As I said, Lee is in front but a good season from Hill (or Brookes come to think if it) could see him on the plane.

I agree re. Lee. Beyond scrummaging, I don't really see what he offers to set him apart. If not Hill, I'd be more inclined towards Furlong, Bealham or even Ross.

Re. Brookes, I think he has a fight on his hands to make the England squad, let alone the Lions. I think Hill will probably nudge ahead at Saints and will become Cole's understudy. Sinckler has impressed Eddie enough to be retained in the provisional EPS and I think his aggression and his greater ability in the loose will probably keep him ahead of Brookes.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I forgot that people don't like their props to be able to scrummage to these days,
Hence people wanting Mako for the Lions and Sinkler for England

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I forgot that people don't like their props to be able to scrummage to these days

I do!

 

[Tony Manx]

I do!

Moi aussi!!

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I forgot that people don't like their props to be able to scrummage to these days,
Hence people wanting Mako for the Lions and Sinkler for England

The thinking with Mako for me is that he offers enough in the loose to justify his poor scrummaging (which has improved). That's why he's seen as an impact sub rather than a starter.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Mako has improved a lot with his scrummaging since 2013 when Ben Alexander, of all tightnead props, was causing him a lot of problems in that 2nd test.

 

[BPM]

I forgot that people don't like their props to be able to scrummage to these days,
Hence people wanting Mako for the Lions and Sinkler for England

Obviously I want props who can scrummage, but at the same time, I don't want that to be the sum total of what they are bringing to the side.

Cole and Nel are the clear favourites, so we're really arguing about a squad member/midweek player. I've just seen nothing from Lee to really make me sit-up and take notice.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

In Cole and Nel there will be 2 THPs who are very solid scrummagers but don't offer a particularly large amount in the loose. I'd rather have my 3rd be 1 that offers something a bit different.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Why, though?
It's not like bringing on a different type of centre to change up the way we attack, you're actively weakening the setpiece in the hope that the (essentially) extra flanker on the pitch makes up for it.


I do agree that Lee is very limited away from the scrum so he's far from an ideal choice but I'd rather him than someone who is very limited IN the scrum, as the scrum is number one priority for a prop.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Why, though?
It's not like bringing on a different type of centre to change up the way we attack, you're actively weakening the setpiece in the hope that the (essentially) extra flanker on the pitch makes up for it.

It's not really an extra flanker, in the case of Mako its have a powerful ball carrier that can come on and make metres. And I think you're slightly exaggerating how poor Mako and Hill are in scrums, they aren't quite Nel or Cole but they are capable of winning their own ball. So a slightly better set piece, in the 2, 3, possibly 4 of our own scrums we may have in the last 20-30 minutes is something I'm willing to sacrifice for the work rate and carrying of Mako. Just my opinion though, I guess it depends how much you value the set piece.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

It's not really an extra flanker, in the case of Mako its have a powerful ball carrier that can come on and make metres. And I think you're slightly exaggerating how poor Mako and Hill are in scrums, they aren't quite Nel or Cole but they are capable of winning their own ball. So a slightly better set piece, in the 2, 3, possibly 4 of our own scrums we may have in the last 20-30 minutes is something I'm willing to sacrifice for the work rate and carrying of Mako. Just my opinion though, I guess it depends how much you value the set piece.

It's not just about winning your own ball though. Scrums are a penalty lottery and the way Mako often ends up completely flat on his front is just asking for trouble. Whether it's his fault or not it's an easy perception that he's guilty.

And to be honest the number of times you see slow moving props clogging up the midfield, slowing down moves and killing space makes me wish that sometimes they'd just stick to piano shifting.

 

[j'nuh]

I think we risk thinking about props in binaries, good at scrum or loose and never both, nor somewhere in-between. In reality, a whole bunch of factors make up whether a player is great or poor in the scrum and the loose. Cole is a great example. I've seen him push international scrums around, and been demolished by non-internationals. In the loose, he's been almost a 7 at one point in his career, and a lazy, breakdown liability in another part.

More than any other position, the prop places are up for grabs IMO. I don't think anyone has been so clearly ahead for long enough a period that it makes me think they are in the driving seat.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

i know this is not really about who the lions should pick but i think the whole discussion about props is what makes the game beautiful... you can have two completely different styles playing the same position and there is debate about which one is better
similar to how two of the best 11s ever (habana and lomu) dominated the game with completely different body types and styles

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

i know this is not really about who the lions should pick but i think the whole discussion about props is what makes the game beautiful... you can have two completely different styles playing the same position and there is debate about which one is better
similar to how two of the best 11s ever (habana and lomu) dominated the game with completely different body types and styles

This is a huge part of what I find fascinating about the game, how one player can be a second rower and another of the same build and physicality can be a wing. It makes positions and what positions an individual can play so interesting to think about.