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Tuilagi and England's centres

I don't think that we lost that game because the lack of a 7. We lost because every single scrum was a penalty to wales and we didn't turn up, simple as, because the other two times Robshaw has played wales we lost one when lawes had the ball ripped from him and it was won by a good solo effort( and strettle scored a try but it wasn't given) and the other time we completely out classed them. The only time we have genuinely lost because our lack of a fetcher was against Australia in 2012 and we beat them this time round. The reason we lost games was not because a 7 it's just we where just starting to get use to Lancaster's system and it is now working it shows that the fetcher is not necessary.

I agree with all of this, though i'd add in that the Fetcher is necessary it just doens't need to be the sole responsibility of the 7.

i mentioned on rugby365 that i always thought MacCaw would have made a better 6 than 7, can you imagine them playing two Richie M's? They nearly lynched me.
 
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I don't think that we lost that game because the lack of a 7. We lost because every single scrum was a penalty to wales and we didn't turn up, simple as, because the other two times Robshaw has played wales we lost one when lawes had the ball ripped from him and it was won by a good solo effort( and strettle scored a try but it wasn't given) and the other time we completely out classed them. The only time we have genuinely lost because our lack of a fetcher was against Australia in 2012 and we beat them this time round. The reason we lost games was not because a 7 it's just we where just starting to get use to Lancaster's system and it is now working it shows that the fetcher is not necessary.

Well obviously it was never as simple as no 7 = massive loss. I was suggesting that a lack of a traditional 'fetcher' 7 leaves us more open to exploitation against teams with good back rows (i.e. almost every top tier nation). I feel we would be stronger with a ruck bothered, fly half terrorising openside than we have with one (or two) six and a halves.

Skip to 1.50 here:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/W7jT0p66_3Q" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>

How often do you see Robshaw do something like Moody does there? Never. He makes a lot of tackles but they're generally stopping big runnings around the fringes rather than getting in the face of the oppo ten. In the current England set up Lawes, and to an extent Launchbury, are the players you are more likely to see flying up and putting big hits in. Thats fine, except that they have plenty of other things to be doing as well so we shouln't be relying on them entirely. Imagine if, as well as Lawes making big hits and Launchbury being a breakdown pest when they could, we also had a 7 who spent the entire game doing that kind of stuff. We'd be in a stronger position.
 
Well obviously it was never as simple as no 7 = massive loss. I was suggesting that a lack of a traditional 'fetcher' 7 leaves us more open to exploitation against teams with good back rows (i.e. almost every top tier nation). I feel we would be stronger with a ruck bothered, fly half terrorising openside than we have with one (or two) six and a halves.

Skip to 1.50 here:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/W7jT0p66_3Q" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>

How often do you see Robshaw do something like Moody does there? Never. He makes a lot of tackles but they're generally stopping big runnings around the fringes rather than getting in the face of the oppo ten. In the current England set up Lawes, and to an extent Launchbury, are the players you are more likely to see flying up and putting big hits in. Thats fine, except that they have plenty of other things to be doing as well so we shouln't be relying on them entirely. Imagine if, as well as Lawes making big hits and Launchbury being a breakdown pest when they could, we also had a 7 who spent the entire game doing that kind of stuff. We'd be in a stronger position.

Wait! are you using Lewis Moody to demonstrate the classic openside roles?
 
As you say Lawes is the one that 10's are terrified of, Robshaw is just a little too slow to do these things. I though feel that I would rather him stopping the big guys around the fringes. I remember the 2012 SA test and Alberts and Potgeiter were running through as like anything, now we have Wood and Robshaw around every ruck and it stops them creating gaps around the ruck and this means that are line speed out wide is great. The thing is I make this point but I think that our best back row so far has been against Argentina 6.Wood 7.Kvesic 8.Morgan I know that they where up against poor players but it was are most impressive back row, against New Zealand we will probably see 6.Robshaw 7.Kvesic 8.Morgan so we will see if the fetcher 7 will help us then.
 
As you say Lawes is the one that 10's are terrified of, Robshaw is just a little too slow to do these things. I though feel that I would rather him stopping the big guys around the fringes. I remember the 2012 SA test and Alberts and Potgeiter were running through as like anything, now we have Wood and Robshaw around every ruck and it stops them creating gaps around the ruck and this means that are line speed out wide is great. The thing is I make this point but I think that our best back row so far has been against Argentina 6.Wood 7.Kvesic 8.Morgan I know that they where up against poor players but it was are most impressive back row, against New Zealand we will probably see 6.Robshaw 7.Kvesic 8.Morgan so we will see if the fetcher 7 will help us then.

Thats exactlywhy I think he's better suited to being a six.

Also, I think 6. Johnson 7. Robshaw 8. Morgan is more likely for NZ, but I agree if we did see Kvesic that would be a great test of how our game looks with a fetching seven.



Any takers on my earlier attempt to drive this topic back to centres?
 
Any takers on my earlier attempt to drive this topic back to centres?

The JJ comment? I think he's out fo the equation. I was never convinced by him at irish, though he has been good for bath. I thought he did well for England on tour, and it was a shame everything ground to a halt... but i can't see how he'd force his way back in.
 
Yeah Joseph's okay but if we want a quick 13 I would take Trinder over him.
 
The JJ comment? I think he's out fo the equation. I was never convinced by him at irish, though he has been good for bath. I thought he did well for England on tour, and it was a shame everything ground to a halt... but i can't see how he'd force his way back in.

I'm not so sure. Until his injury I'd say he was the form English 13, although obviously Manu was injured and Burrell has been playing 12. He runs of beautiful lines and has a nice understanding with Eastmond. I think it'll take injuries for him to get involved but I can see him making the plan to NZ.

I looked it up and he's managed to get six caps pretty much under the radar. I have a feeling be might end up like Brown, not really making it internationally under mid twenties.
 
he got three in South Africa?

where were the other three?

*Edit: just checked, two in argentina and one against NZ in the EOYT.
 
Which EOYT was that? I thought he'd been capped in the '12 6 Nations.

Regardless, being taken on tour and being in multiple EPS squads suggests the coaches see something in him. I'd love to see what he can do now we have a distributing twelve/with Eastmond now they play at club level.
 
I completely forgot about that!

I guess he's probably third in line? I see the current 13 options as something like:

Burrell
Tuilagi
Joseph
Daly
Barrit
Tompkins (lol)
 
I'm surprised that Trinder isn't higher on that list. I thought he was in the squad for the 6 nations but he got injured ? Is it also worth trying May at 13 ? His lateral running wouldn't happen at 13 because he would be in around forwards and people he tries to find mismatches with.
 
I completely forgot about that!

I guess he's probably third in line? I see the current 13 options as something like:

Burrell
Tuilagi
Joseph
Daly
Barrit
Tompkins (lol)

I really, really wanted Tompkins to be good but he's completely out of his depth. does the occasional thing here and there... reminds me of Barry John Mather.
 
What you mean this try? The one where Farrell takes it to the line Barritt makes the break and Manu executes a simple 2 on 1 back to Barritt? Tuilagi created that did he?


To put that all down to Tuilagi is stretching it a little.

Farrell took it to the line and pulled Nonu and Read in (which is who Barritt made the break outside of), Smith did everything right for a "man on defence" which is normal in his own half off quick phase play - he scanned counted the numbers knew Jane was sitting in the pocket and left a two on two inside and pushed on the outside man and mirrored up and trusted his inside defenders - notice England have a 3 on three, nonu realigns quickly, and Farrell takes two out with his draw and pass. The man at fault was read, he should have held his man on, and left Farrell to nonu - it's the speed of the ball that creates that try as it allows the defence to stay deset and farrell to come onto the ball and bring it to the line.

But you are right it was AAAAAALLLLL Tuilagi.

He made a fantastic break through carter and gave a good pass to Ashton for his try, and intercepted for his own.


First of all I didn't say he created it, him being there caused the scenario that opened the space. You gave him zero credit, and still do it appears. I don't think Read was to blame at all, Smith charged out the line because he wanted to stop Manu and left too much space for Read to cover (after he was also covering Farrell). Also what he did do was simple at the end? Pfft, that says everything about what you think of Tuilagi right there. Barritt needed to commit Dagg but passed way too early leaving alot to do, which he did perfectly.
 
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3 tries against NZ and he was central in all of them....but lets focus on what he doesnt do so well which is pass like a scrum half. Really talk about fickle.
 
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