Summer tours - England

[TRF_Olyy]

How good has Ben Curry been?

Like Tom has gone from talented to basically being able to play any style of rugby, and adapt to any role, exceptionally. His all round game has come on massively, has Ben done the same?

I've always though he was the better of the two, tbh - also a very good leader, he was our vice captain before his injury (now it's gone to TC)
He's the more breakdown oriented of the two, but I think that's more because of the role England want Tom to play (more physical so he can cover 8)

 

[BiggusLaddus]

RFU

www.englandrugby.com

Revolving door keeps revolving.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

RFU

www.englandrugby.com

Revolving door keeps revolving.

All evidence points to Jones being super difficult to work with which isn't great news but I think we all knew that deep down.

 

[Jakedood]

All evidence points to Jones being super difficult to work with which isn't great news but I think we all knew that deep down.

Correct me if i'm wrong


But wasnt amor just a stand in due to the covid situation?

Also I think Jones likes having people with different ideas etc in the England camp, more so as skills coaches than anything

But yeah he does 100% drive hard standards for coaches, he's from the sound of things, thinking rugby 20 hours a day then sleeping, majority of people could not handle that

Some previous people leaving have gone for bigger jobs too tbf

 

[TRF_Olyy]

RFU

www.englandrugby.com

Revolving door keeps revolving.

It makes sense us having no skills nor attack coach, as our backs have no skills nor attack

Correct me if i'm wrong
But wasnt amor just a stand in due to the covid situation?

Don't think so - at least, I can't see any mention of that in articles from when he joined.
You might be thinking of the Jersey skills coach who came in for this Six Nations, short term, to cover for Ryles being stuck in Aus

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Reyes makes sense with the current pandemic.
TBF most of Jones ex coaches all left for bigger or similar level but better for them jobs pretty much.

Although comments about being too difficult to work with are interesting.
Little known Stankovich apparently left because he wasn't a fan of Borthwick's work style which is apparently extremely similar to Eddie as being rugby 24/7. For some being it's being difficult to work with others is driving their standards into their coaching staff.

 

[BPM]

All evidence points to Jones being super difficult to work with which isn't great news but I think we all knew that deep down.

Not really ... that's just your one track 'I hate Eddie Jones' mindset.

Ryles never really got started due to COVID and also said he decided to leave because he didn't want to relocate his family in the current circumstances. I don't think that has anything to do with Eddie being 'super difficult to work with'.

Amor was always a weird choice and he's probably partially carrying the can for our 6N performance. I don't really agree with that, but again, that sounds like he's more of a sacrificial lamb demanded by the RFU rather than anything related to Eddie specifically.

Also, even if you are on the anti-Eddie bandwagon - this means he's personally overseeing attack for the summer, which means he has nowhere to hide. Admittedly, we might not really need an attack coach to beat USA and Canada, but on the other hand, anything but convincing wins will come under heavy scrutiny.

 

[BPM]

I've always though he was the better of the two, tbh - also a very good leader, he was our vice captain before his injury (now it's gone to TC)
He's the more breakdown oriented of the two, but I think that's more because of the role England want Tom to play (more physical so he can cover 8)

Yep. Agree with all of the above.

I'd love to see him finally get a chance.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I wonder if Amor will take up a full time role with GB7s, or do something completely different?
I think he was supposed to be doing XVs and 7s at the same time - considering he joined the XVs last season (i.e. after the Olympics was meant to be) I wonder if he found he couldn't juggle Olympics prep and XVs and decided to concentrate fully on 7s instead?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Sam Vesty for Backs coach pls.....

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Not really ... that's just your one track 'I hate Eddie Jones' mindset.

Ryles never really got started due to COVID and also said he decided to leave because he didn't want to relocate his family in the current circumstances. I don't think that has anything to do with Eddie being 'super difficult to work with'.

Amor was always a weird choice and he's probably partially carrying the can for our 6N performance. I don't really agree with that, but again, that sounds like he's more of a sacrificial lamb demanded by the RFU rather than anything related to Eddie specifically.

Also, even if you are on the anti-Eddie bandwagon - this means he's personally overseeing attack for the summer, which means he has nowhere to hide. Admittedly, we might not really need an attack coach to beat USA and Canada, but on the other hand, anything but convincing wins will come under heavy scrutiny.

When I leave a job because of a poor line manager I don't say it do I. That would be career suicide.

There is no smoke without fire (smoke machines are dry ice) and all his staff move on, all of them. Doesn't that say something? They are always going to have offers after working with England but if it was a great place to work people would stay as it's the top jobs in the game (in this country).

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Being an assistant coach even at International level isn't considered a top job by most ambitious coaches.
Literally every single coach desires becoming a head coach.
It tends to be either the been their done it and wasn't good at it coaches or the coaches who in the end decide they like the assistant level and limited stresses it gives compared to the top job.

 

[BPM]

Yep. Borthwick and Gustard left for #1 jobs and Wiesmantel made a sideways move to stay in Australia. None of those scream out 'poor line manager' as the obvious cause of the move. I'd say they had an opportunity to take on a bigger job and that's about it ...

Also part of Eddie's job was to develop English coaches, obviously Gustard didn't do brilliantly, but working with England undoubtedly gave him the platform that got him the job. Borthwick has done very well so far.

As for Amor, no-one was overly excited when he got the job and I doubt many are devastated that he's going.

I do find your insistence that everything is Eddie Jones' fault exceptionally tiresome.

 

[Which Tyler]

Borthwick - 5 years went to Leicester Tigers Head Coach role
Hatley - 4 years went to Bath Head Coach role
Mitchell - 3 years still in coaching team
Gustard - 2 years went to Quins head coach role
Teague - 1 year went to Bordeaux-Begles skills coach (Ended up head coach after a year)

So... He's notoriously hard to work with for any assitant.
Part of his job description has been to help train up English coaches for future consideration.

He helps train up several English coaches to the point the take a promotion to club head coach.
"Oh no, he must be terrible, no-one can work with him, or improve under him" is about the worst take from the evidence that I can think of.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Borthwick - 5 years went to Leicester Tigers Head Coach role
Hatley - 4 years went to Bath Head Coach role
Mitchell - 3 years still in coaching team
Gustard - 2 years went to Quins head coach role
Teague - 1 year went to Bordeaux-Begles skills coach (Ended up head coach after a year)

So... He's notoriously hard to work with for any assitant.
Part of his job description has been to help train up English coaches for future consideration.

He helps train up several English coaches to the point the take a promotion to club head coach.
"Oh no, he must be terrible, no-one can work with him, or improve under him" is about the worst take from the evidence that I can think of.

How does that compare to other national teams. Even if you ignore my 'Jones is hard work' which I know I could be wrong on, that's a really high turnover of staff. There's no continuity there. Was hoping someone would be an assistant and eventually take over as head coach.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

You would prob complain about the lack of head coach experience though.

 

[Which Tyler]

How many other international teams have their job description written by the RFU?
How many other international teams promote from assistant to head coach without any head coaching experience?

I don't think anyone's denying that Eddie is a hard taskmaster, he's an obsessive, and demands the same from his underlings. Some people can cope with having to respond within 10 minutes of an email sent at 3.00am, some can't.
It probably doesn't help with retention, but not does a deliberate aim of not retaining assistants for too long.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

How many other international teams have their job description written by the RFU?
How many other international teams promote from assistant to head coach without any head coaching experience?

I don't think anyone's denying that Eddie is a hard taskmaster, he's an obsessive, and demands the same from his underlings. Some people can cope with having to respond within 10 minutes of an email sent at 3.00am, some can't.
It probably doesn't help with retention, but not does a deliberate aim of not retaining assistants for too long.

Maybe the RFU have told him to go through a load of assistants to get them all experience. Just seems odd to me that's all.

 

[BrokenWing]

As for Amor, no-one was overly excited when he got the job and I doubt many are devastated that he's going.

The guy who does Wibble Rugby on YouTube touted that him and Eddie were going to turn England into world dominators.

Someone did point out that with the sevens setup facing the chop, maybe it was just cheaper to give him this role until his contract expired.

 

[BPM]

How many other international teams promote from assistant to head coach without any head coaching experience?

NZ and Ireland have promoted from within with Farrell and Foster I guess. The latter definitely hasn't been a popular appointment though.

I think it's hard to groom a successor within the international set-up. With 10 or so games a year, there's a limited window for a coach to hone their craft to the level required to be the head honcho and if you're in a team that usually wins more often than not, how much are you really learning?

Ignoring their relative successes, the route Borthwick, Gustard and Hatley feels like the right one. They've learned what works in a test environment and have then taken the opportunity to learn what it takes to be number 1 in a demanding environment. You could also include Dan McFarland who did an assistant coach role with Scotland before taking the Ulster job (where he's done pretty well).

As time goes on, that experience should put all of them in a good position for a number 1 job in test rugby. England is about the hardest there is, but I could see all of those (including Gustard) in bigger jobs in the future.