Spring Tour: South Africa v England -2nd Test. (16/06/2012 15:00GMT)

[Phlegm & Poise]

At half time I thought we were lucky to be 'only' 25-10 down and that they were going to put 50 points on us. With 10 minutes to go at 31-27 I really thought we might nick it. In the end, the Boks deserved to win and again the final scoreline was probably flattering on us even after a better second half.

I'm hoping that Corbisiero starts next week; I don't like props who can't scrum, and at the moment Marler seems to be in that category. The front three of Cole, Hartley and Corbs finally got their beef on in the second half and if we'd had someone at the back of a scrum who can keep it in there then we might have pushed that 31-27 scoreline even closer.

On the whole, we really don't have many strengths over the SH sides. Our defence and biff which works well in the 6N is nothing but standard to these chaps. When you're making the sorts of basic errors that we did in the first half it doesn't matter what hemisphere you're playing in, you'll get thumped.

I thought Flood played well and English runners were actually put through gaps through the game despite not ever getting great ball.

Foden should have passed to Morgan early on and also dropped a regulation catch or two which normally he'd have snaffled. Still not anything like under threat.

Our pack...bar perhaps Cole (who is looking really handy at the moment), would any get into the bok side? I know we're missing Croft and Wood in the back row, but is Johnson really a good enough option? The physicality the Boks bring, I'd lean towards the braindead Hask for the 3rd test. Parling is doing ok. Botha needs to be left in South Africa.

Musings, musings, musings.

I think if we were playing Australia then we'd have picked up a win by now.

 

[Phlegm & Poise]

And on Lancaster.

He's doing ok and making the right noises. No-one seriously expected anything other than a series loss here, but come the AIs I'd like to see us with an idea of who can biff the SH sides about a bit, including a victory or two.

 

[coonor]

I really can't see England winning the next game with their current pack. It seems like backs selection is what concerning Lancaster but the clear dominance of the tackle is what's losing England the game. England need to meet SA at the tackle line and stop them from going forward. The back row is not moving across fast enough as a unit in defence. Robshaw is doing his bit but Johnson and Morgan aren't when it comes to defence, in fact I haven't seen a big hit from any of Englands pack. They seem to be trying to grab hold of them rather then "hitting" them and putting them on their arse! Botha is enforcing enough at this level, but Palmer looked very poor coming on. Pearling missed his fair share of tackles, and even Cole whole usually is solid in defence was being shoved about. Lawes is really being missed, England really need his force and commitment.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Botha is enforcing enough at this level

There must be a player in the Boks called Botha, because you can't be talking about Mouritz?!

 

[coonor]

There must be a player in the Boks called Botha, because you can't be talking about Mouritz?!

Sorry that was meant to say "isn't enforcing enough"

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Makes much more sense

I agree with your though - we're doing well at the breakdown, but initial collisions and just general enforcing a defensive line isn't good enough.

 

[coonor]

Makes much more sense

I agree with your though - we're doing well at the breakdown, but initial collisions and just general enforcing a defensive line isn't good enough.

Thats the problem, like Robshaw has probably been the most effective player at the breakdown on the entire pitch but by time it gets to the breakdown battle, South Africa have already made 5 metres basically every phase. England need to pick someone who can stop the SA carriers and just quell momentum. Johnson hasn't played badly but he's not really a key figure and England need some more brutality in the pack. Another fix would be to keep possession. To my surprise Flood and Youngs looked dangerous but the kicking game was still poor, and SA don't give away possession easily.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

ESPNscrum stats don't make for pretty reading: So many missed tackles by our forwards, and these weren't mis-matches but forwards just being knocked out the way.

Pos T/A Pts K/P/R MR CB DB OL TO Tack LO Pen Y/R
FB Foden 0/0 0 2/3/5 58 2 1 3 1 4/1 1/0 0 0/0
W Ashton 0/1 0 1/4/3 15 0 0 2 1 2/0 0/0 1 0/0
C Joseph 0/0 0 2/3/3 0 0 0 0 2 5/0 0/0 0 0/0
C Tuilagi 0/0 0 0/3/4 56 1 2 0 1 3/1 0/0 0 0/0
W Strettle 0/0 0 0/0/4 7 0 1 0 0 3/0 0/0 0 0/0
FH Flood 1/0 17 3/21/2 15 0 1 0 0 5/0 0/0 0 0/0
SH Youngs 2/0 10 11/33/4 4 0 0 0 4 3/0 0/0 0 0/0
P Marler 0/0 0 0/0/3 2 0 0 0 1 5/2 0/0 1 0/0
H Hartley 0/0 0 0/2/4 8 0 0 0 0 6/2 0/0 0 0/0
P Cole 0/0 0 0/2/0 0 0 0 0 0 6/1 0/0 3 0/0
L Botha 0/0 0 0/0/0 0 0 0 0 1 8/1 2/0 1 0/0
L Parling 0/0 0 0/2/2 4 0 0 1 0 12/2 5/0 0 0/0
F Johnson 0/0 0 1/3/7 18 0 0 1 1 11/1 2/0 0 0/0
F Robshaw 0/0 0 0/3/3 1 0 0 0 0 9/4 3/0 3 0/0
N8 Morgan 0/0 0 0/1/6 25 0 1 0 0 4/1 0/0 0 0/0
(H) Mears 0/0 0 0/0/2 0 0 0 0 0 0/0 0/0 0 0/0
(P) Corbisiero 0/0 0 0/0/2 2 0 0 0 0 1/0 0/0 1 0/0
(L) Palmer 0/0 0 0/1/2 3 0 0 0 1 1/1 0/0 0 0/0
(N8) Waldrom 0/0 0 0/2/6 34 0 0 1 2 2/0 0/0 0 0/0
(SH) Dickson 0/0 0 0/9/1 0 0 0 0 1 0/0 0/0 0 0/0
(W) Farrell 0/0 0 1/4/1 0 0 0 1 0 0/1 0/0 0 0/0
(C) Goode 0/0 0 0/0/1 12 0 0 0 0 0/0 1/0 0 0/0
Key: T/A Tries / Try Assists Pts Points scored

Have to say though, in the first 15 minutes I was thinking jesus wy are South Africa so much bigger stronger, better than our pack and making ground so easily. But actually, when you look at our efforts taking the ball forward in the SOuth Africa 22 in the second half, we were making approximately similar gains. We really were getting over the gainline. I suppose the difference is that South Africa were able to do it despite the opposition defence being completely fresh.

Ben Youngs was right when he said the first 20 killed us. The most disappointing thing really is that we couldn't sort out possession issues. Half of the battle in beating the boks would be to get ahead early, make them chase the game out of their comfort zone- #ChristianBaleinPsycho-stylebludgeoning, also winning the tactical battle and winning more possession. We didn't manage any of those things. We played the first half an hour without the ball and it killed us.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Youngs out for the rest of the tour, K.Dickson called up.
Hopefully Care will start the next test.

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[Peat]

Youngs out for the rest of the tour, K.Dickson called up.
Hopefully Care will start the next test.

Sent from my HTC Incredible S using Tapatalk 2

Christ he's an annoying little scrote. Finally gets some form and then gets injured.

The thing about the pack is quite a few people picked up on the lack of power/carriers thing when the squad was announced.

To a certain extent, there's nothing we can do. These are the available players once you've stripped out the injured. Corbs, Lawes, and Croft/Wood would be a good step forwards in terms of quality. I also think Launchbury would have been involved if he'd stayed fit. But I do think there are better calls Lancaster could have made in the second row. In certainty of being a broken record, Matt Garvey is exactly the sort of lock England need right now, with Attwood being built on the right lines too. Was Narraway fit?

 

[Sker]

F.Steyn's getting leashed this weekend, so he's out for the third test.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Christ he's an annoying little scrote. Finally gets some form and then gets injured.

The thing about the pack is quite a few people picked up on the lack of power/carriers thing when the squad was announced.

To a certain extent, there's nothing we can do. These are the available players once you've stripped out the injured. Corbs, Lawes, and Croft/Wood would be a good step forwards in terms of quality. I also think Launchbury would have been involved if he'd stayed fit. But I do think there are better calls Lancaster could have made in the second row. In certainty of being a broken record, Matt Garvey is exactly the sort of lock England need right now, with Attwood being built on the right lines too. Was Narraway fit?

Don't watch Irish much but apparently Garvey won 'defender of the campaign' award for Irish last season with tackle completion of over 95%. Man we needed that kind of work

 

[TRF_Olyy]

He's a brute as well - adequate in the lineout, dece.t hands, but smashes people when carrying/tackling - that's what we're missing. Waldrom/Morgan can smash through people when they feel like it but neither really did last match, and none of the other forwards have made much of an impact in that area either.

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[TRF_Ezequiel]

F.Steyn's getting leashed this weekend, so he's out for the third test.

They will be happily married. She is happy, he is married...

 

[Amobokoboko]

Great game. Went to watch it in a pub in London overcrowd with Afrikaaners. Made lots of new friends.
Great stuff by the Boks and what a come back by the Poms.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Why is "poms" an acceptable term these days?

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[j'nuh]

He's a brute as well - adequate in the lineout, dece.t hands, but smashes people when carrying/tackling - that's what we're missing. Waldrom/Morgan can smash through people when they feel like it but neither really did last match, and none of the other forwards have made much of an impact in that area either.

tbf on Morgan and Waldrom, smashing through a Bok is like trying to punch a blue whale to death.

I'm worried about the state of the English hooker. I can't ever remember our scrum getting better for Mears' presence, I can't think of many players falling off more tackles than Hartley and Gray hardly had the best midweek game.

I think about half of our pack shouldn't be first-choice now. Nothing needs to be said about Botha, Marler isn't ready for this level of scrummaging (for the future: step in Nick Wood), Johnson hasn't been awful but I think Wood, Seymour, Armitage, Croft and Haskell should be in ahead of him, and Morgan looks like he's been rushed back from his injury. In the backs, Flood-Allen-Tuilagi seems a glaringly obvious midfield to put in place.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Why is "poms" an acceptable term these days?

In SA it is...

Anyway, so now the dead rubber match is the only one left standing, with Heyneke Meyer already saying that he's going to use this match as preparation for the Rugby Championship.

3 Injury concerns which will be assessed before wednesday's team announcement to deal with and Frans Steyn getting married could lead to a total of at least 4 changes in the team. Willem Alberts (knee), Pat Lambie (ankle) and Juandre Kruger (neck) all doubtfull, leaves some questions.

So let's see what could happen.

How fitting would it be for Jacques Potgieter to make his springbok debut at his original home ground of PE? he's my number 1 candidate to replace Alberts.

With Lambie out, the only fullback left standing is Gio Aplon. with this said, I also think Heyneke should remove Morne Steyn from the 10 spot and if Lambie is fit, let him play 10, alternatively give Elton Jantjies a go...

Juandre Kruger is the only one that leaves a major concern, in that there is no proper substitute for him. Andries Bekker is still out injured so who's left??? Heyneke can always go for Ryan Kankowski at lock...

Frans Steyn is getting Married (and a haircut) on the weekend, and this is where My biggest worry will be, in that I have no idea what Heyneke will do (actually, I have an idea, i just don't want him to directly replace Wynand Olivier with Steyn). How about moving Jean De Villiers to 12, JP Pietersen to 13 and then let Mvovo or Basson get a chance on the wing??

 

[Peat]

Why is "poms" an acceptable term these days?

Sent from my HTC Incredible S using Tapatalk 2

Because we're not as precious as some of our colonial cousins.

j'nuh - Little argument with you, save to point out that Marler only got the shirt because of an injury to Corbs, and it's Corbs who'll be having it back. And rightly so, much as I like Nick Wood.

Right now, we seem very short on big, strong, fit athletes. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it comes down to the starting props and Haskell, and we all know the problems with the latter...

 

[Darwin]

In SA it is...

Anyway, so now the dead rubber match is the only one left standing, with Heyneke Meyer already saying that he's going to use this match as preparation for the Rugby Championship.

3 Injury concerns which will be assessed before wednesday's team announcement to deal with and Frans Steyn getting married could lead to a total of at least 4 changes in the team. Willem Alberts (knee), Pat Lambie (ankle) and Juandre Kruger (neck) all doubtfull, leaves some questions.

So let's see what could happen.

How fitting would it be for Jacques Potgieter to make his springbok debut at his original home ground of PE? he's my number 1 candidate to replace Alberts.

With Lambie out, the only fullback left standing is Gio Aplon. with this said, I also think Heyneke should remove Morne Steyn from the 10 spot and if Lambie is fit, let him play 10, alternatively give Elton Jantjies a go...

Juandre Kruger is the only one that leaves a major concern, in that there is no proper substitute for him. Andries Bekker is still out injured so who's left??? Heyneke can always go for Ryan Kankowski at lock...

Frans Steyn is getting Married (and a haircut) on the weekend, and this is where My biggest worry will be, in that I have no idea what Heyneke will do (actually, I have an idea, i just don't want him to directly replace Wynand Olivier with Steyn). How about moving Jean De Villiers to 12, JP Pietersen to 13 and then let Mvovo or Basson get a chance on the wing??

It will be interesting to see what sort of team South Africa puts out. You would have to think that with the series won you wouldn't want to risk anyone who was carrying even a slight injury, so we could see a number of changes as you suggest. Flip van der Merwe is obviously the next best lock, but given both he and Etzebeth are genuine tighthead locks I suppose we could see a debut for Franco van der Merwe (I'd prefer to see Flip though). Potgieter has the size and power to play a similar role to Alberts, but if they have an eye to the Rugby Championship I do wonder whether they will consider bringing in Daniels at 6 (and shifting Coetzee to 7). Daniels certainly isn't as pure 'fetcher' in the mold of Brussow or Pocock, but he is certainly better adapted to the 'traditional openside role' (which I believe will be required against NZ and Australia) than any of other squad options at the moment.

I can't see Morne Steyn being replaced (though I think it would be a good idea), and would be interested to see how Aplon goes if he plays at fullback. I'm not yet convinced about Aplon at fullback - he is a quality player no doubt, I'm just not sure whether he is a test fullback (he'd still be a better option than Kirchner though IMO....). I agree Frans Steyn would be the biggest loss to the team - not only because he is a quality player, but because their is no obvious replacement. Olivier could partner de Villiers, but he's only really been average at international level (I would have preferred de Jongh in the squad). I don't favour playing Pietersen at centre - he looks to be getting back to top form on the wing so I would leave him there (and playing wings at centre is seldom a good idea). I wonder whether we may see a test debut for JJ Engelbrecht (maybe from the bench)?