Spring Tour: South Africa - England - 1st Test (09/06/2012, 16:00 GMT)

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

If Barritt is out it gives us an opportunity to experiment. I personally like the idea of trying Tuilagi at 12 and bringing in Joseph at 13. I would have Flood at 10 but I doubt that would happen just yet. 12: Allen 13: Tuilagi could also work. We have to take a more precise and incisive running game to the field next week if we're to stand a chance.

Alberts was terrifyingly good yesterday. Our back-row should stay the same but Haskell needs to find his way into the 22.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

If I were Meyer I'd be trying to attacking the scrum further aswell. The Beast certainly had a significant upper hand on Cole and it would have been interesting to see how many penalties they would have won if the ball was kept in a bit longer.

Ay?
Cole won penalties vs the Beast, and the wheel came from Marlers side and the penalty came from PDJ as well. Cole was fine.

Alberts was terrifyingly good yesterday. Our back-row should stay the same but Haskell needs to find his way into the 22.

I agree, I think he might start the mid-week and then (hopefully) bench vs the Boks. He's as versatile as Dowson but is better in all three backrow positions.

 

[coonor]

Ay?
Cole won penalties vs the Beast, and the wheel came from Marlers side and the penalty came from PDJ as well. Cole was fine.



I agree, I think he might start the mid-week and then (hopefully) bench vs the Boks. He's as versatile as Dowson but is better in all three backrow positions.

Cole's bind was consistently short. What I'm saying is that had SA left the ball in longer they would have almost certainly won penalties for Cole dropping the bind. Just look at the hands in the scrum penalty, Johnson had no choice because of the pressure coming rom the Beast forcing Cole to drop his bind. This happened on a number of occasions.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Ay?
Cole won penalties vs the Beast, and the wheel came from Marlers side and the penalty came from PDJ as well. Cole was fine.

This. And when the scrum is wheeling Cole can't drive he has to just try and keep it steady which is difficult with the Beast throwing his weight at him. I was disappointed to see PDJ struggle like that. Maybe he should have a run out this wednesday to see how he goes.

I agree, I think he might start the mid-week and then (hopefully) bench vs the Boks. He's as versatile as Dowson but is better in all three backrow positions.

Yep. Also, big Haskell is big.

ALSO: We really just need an enforcer in the second row. Sadly I do think we're missing Lawes' big team-lifting hits and general presence.. This could also be someone like Attwood, though.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I don't understand when people fawn over Botha so much. He does OK at the breakdown, but as a carrier and a defender he is completely non-existent.
His tackling really annoys me, it's like he's scared or something, he goes in upright and just tries to grasp at their shirt: not going to work on an 18st guy going full pelt.

I'd rather Palmer/Parling than have Botha in there, as at least Palmer can defend. It's a shame we lost Launchbury as Kitchener is more of a lineout guy as well, as is Robson.
We need a Lawes/Launchbury/Garvey/Attwood type guy in there.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

I don't understand when people fawn over Botha so much. He does OK at the breakdown, but as a carrier and a defender he is completely non-existent.
His tackling really annoys me, it's like he's scared or something, he goes in upright and just tries to grasp at their shirt: not going to work on an 18st guy going full pelt.

I'd rather Palmer/Parling than have Botha in there, as at least Palmer can defend. It's a shame we lost Launchbury as Kitchener is more of a lineout guy as well, as is Robson.
We need a Lawes/Launchbury/Garvey/Attwood type guy in there.

Agree, Bothas banana-skin approach to tackling really isn't cutting in. I agree that Palmer could be worth an outing. I remember England vs Wales last year at the MS and his defence f the gainline was quality. He was giving no ground at all. Him and Haskell could be the way forward on the physicality stakes. If we can match South Africa up front the as we saw yesterday they can run out of ideas.

 

[Teh Mite]

So far as I could see, Cole was fine in the scrum. All the penalties came from Marler popping out between the boiler room and back room or PDJ doing a Matt Stevens impression by rubbing his own face along a white line. I have no idea where this impression Beast was getting the upper hand. Beast is a pretty average scrummager but a good loose forward (sounds like another prop often alluded to being god-like on TRF...)

My biggest concern is the backs:
Halfbacks
9. Youngs is Harry Ellis AICMFP. There should be no place for him in the team until he learns how to play again (Is he really the same player who looked so promising 2 years ago?). Forgetting what Olyy says, Dicko is the best option if we want to have a backline which can play - Also his box-kicking is quicker then Youngs and infinitely more productive because he can put it in a contestable position. Care is in excellent form and should be the impact sub if England need to change a point of attack.
10. Farrell - Is he suffering because of Youngs, because of fatigue or because of pressure? Or a culmination of the 3? Flood looked far more composed when he came on maybe worth a change.

Centres
12. Barritt looks like he's bolloxed for the tour with a broken eye, so why not play the form 12 from the past 3 months? Allen.
13. Tuilagi is a straight up crash/bang player (who in their right mind thinks a none-passing lump could make a 12?). Putting JDV on his backside 3 times was a good play, however he looks for the contact instead of looking for a break - That's a huge concern. Joseph however saw the ball once and almost scored. I'll say Joseph for the 13 shirt because...

Back 3
11. Foden is not a winger. Foden is a full back, one of the best in the world at that. Brown is not one of the best in the world. He's pretty normal, with a massive amount of media pressure calling for him to be selected. Tuilagi looks a lot like his brother with the ball in hand (i.e. Runs in a straight line pretty quickly and never passes). Do I need to spell this out?
14. Ashton did a few things very well. He also saw no ball arrive on him thanks to Youngs, Farrell and Barritt kicking everything away. Is that enough to drop him?
15. Brown cannot tackle. Brown cannot back himself when a gap appears. Brown does however have an enormous left boot... I can see exactly what Mike Catt sees in him. Foden wins the shirt.

So, If I made the call I'd like:

9. Dickson
10. Flood
11. Manu
12. Allen
13. Josesph
14. Ashton
15. Foden

20. Care
21. Farrell
22. Brown


I however expect no changes except Barritt due to the injury.

 

[coonor]

Maybe it's just interpretation but when I'm reffing and the current directives from the RFU is to firstly concentrate on the tight heads bind and thus for me Cole was engaging with a short arm bind and dropping it. Had SA allowed the scrum to continue meaning it would collapse I personally would have been penalising Cole in most occasions for illegal binding.

 

[SomeOke]

Good game of rugby. Both teams need a little bit of fine tuning but still a great contest. All credit to the English, they dominated the breakdown and defended well, making it difficult to keep momentum.
The second half was better and I'm not to sure if it's because England slackened the pressure a little bit or we got better at protecting our own ball, but even then the English defence was hard to breach.

A few thoughts on the SA side.
- Habana and Alberts were the only players who really gave the English defence consistent trouble in terms of making good ground. Habana haters can sit down, as he was MOTM in my opinion, great on defence, tireless work rate and a few great runs.
- Marcell Coetzee, Eben Etzebeth and Kruger were all fine on debut, nothing too game changing yet, but solid performances from all three. Coetzee was definitely the best of the three with plenty of tackles and some good solid carries.
- Frans Steyn was solid, one or two nice carries, and solid on defence, definitely our best option at inside, same goes for JDV, he showed great commitment to score the try and in general I thought he contained Tuilagi quite well (although Manu did get the better of him once or twice).
- Pietersen was fine, he played well enough to not justify being dropped which is a little irritating because I'd love to see Mvovo given a chance.
- Our front row exceeded expectation in the scums, although England did throw away a few with the early engagements. I think our front row is far more used to the slow paaaaaaausses from Super Rugby, England shouldn't make the same mistake again though.
- Hougard was fine, good on defence and one or two nice breaks his box kicks are definitely an area of concern but I do think he is the future in terms of SA scum-half, he just needs a little polishing.
- I didn't think Zane was that bad either, Lambie wasn't exactly explosive when he came on but then again he should never be playing a fullback.
- Morne's distribution was actually fairly good, although letting 8 points slip away from lousy place kicking is unforgivable.
- Spies was average, doesn't really offer us anything, although I do think he's very solid at the back of the line-outs, when the ball came his way things always looked good.
- Willem was immense, if he just works on his handling a little bit he could be great.

A few thoughts on the England side (take these with a pinch of salt as I haven't watched any of these players play for their clubs)
- In general the forwards were much sharper at the breakdown than their South African counter parts, I didn't really see one player in particular standing out but they were all good.
- Parling was very good in the line-outs.
- Manu Tuilagi is a great ball carrier but held on to the ball to much, and stifled momentum a couple times because of this. He needs to learn how to pass.
- Brown was solid, but he did make a few wayward kicks, Foden was fantastic however and I can't see how they justify not having him at fullback.
- Flood was better at the running game but Farrel was winning the kicking game in the first half. On that note I think Farrel is better suited when SA is in aerial mode but when SA adjusted tactics to more of a running game, he wasn't as effective. Tactically I feel England were a little over prepared for a kicking game and when SA changed tactics they just weren't as effective.

Overall I really enjoyed the match. I do think the SA team will only get better, but then again England didn't play to their full potential. They had better games in the 6-nations. Anything can still happen in the next two matches but I will be backing our boys .

Edit: Youngs was also pretty average. His kicking is **** much like Hougard but he's not nearly as good at breaking the line from runs. Wasn't always the case! Not sure what happened to him, but I remember rating him very highly as a running scrum-half even as recently as the WC.

 

[Patchey]

The most frustrating part of the game for me was watching it on South African TV, the bias of the commentary made me shake with rage and mutter things like 'thank God we have the BBC..'.

No seriously it was a great game and I think that England took more positives than negatives overall. Simply managing to front up to the 'Boks (especially in the first 40) was a pretty fine achievement. However...

Ben Youngs at 9 had me close to tears. I honestly think that as turgid as our midfield can be we're never going to fully realise our attacking 'potential' until we get a 9 that is on form and can give quick, accurate service. The box kicking strategy is also infuriating. If you're trying to clear your lines and put the ball into touch why would you box kick when you have Farrel/Flood/Brown/Foden in the back line who all have large large boots. Using the box kick defensively is not a good idea IMO.

Presuming Barrit is fit to play I think he should keep the 12 jersey, he is a tank in defense and compared to some of the meat head we've had in the centres in recent years has a fair enough attacking game. I'd like to see Joseph start at 13 with Manu either as in impact player for the last twenty or on the wing (anyone but Strettle).

The back three were tidy although not exactly extrordinary. Brown did very well under the high ball and at least showed willing going forwards, its a shame for him that we have Foden because otherwise he would be a shoe in for starting 15. As it is I think Foden should go back to fullback for next week, he was wasted sitting out on the wing. Ashton show some glimpses of what he can do but we need someone else on the other wing, I guess we could do much worse than trying Manu out.

Also, can someone please Corbs for next week, even if he only benches. Marler did okay but Dorran-Jones was pretty poor when he came on.

Full credit to South Africa though, they took everything we threw at them and gave us more in return. While I wouldn't say the scoreline flattered England we were lucky that Steyn's boot deviated from its normal god-like accuracy...

 

[Teh Mite]

The most frustrating part of the game for me was watching it on South African TV, the bias of the commentary made me shake with rage and mutter things like 'thank God we have the BBC..'

...Who never have and never will display any interest in showing any English rugby played outside of the UK, and then will only mutter brief mentions of it if there's no soccer on.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Lots of great posts above. Teh Mite, I can see why you don't agree with the Tuilagi at 12 idea but the argument for it is common-sense: Tuilagi is a midfield weapon, but doesn't pass. Partly this is because he doesn't want to pass. Partly this is also because who is there to pass to with the way we are playing. As a 13 he is the end of the phase, whereas if we want the backs to play off him he needs to be in the middle of the phase with another guy outside him. Tuilagi sucks in men and people inevitably miss tackles on him. But that's ok, because at present he is eventually brought down and the ball is then recycled (with inadequate service and midfield creativity to really take advantage of this). Tuilagi does not really have an off-loading game so in my opinion the only way to make him play more for the team is to put someone outside him, probably Jonathan Joseph. As we saw when Tuilagi played alongisde Tindall it is possible to have the roles flexible, so that players can switch, or defend at 12 attack at 13, for example. Why can't we do that and just be a bit more savvy about using Manu.

Marler: I think his greatest impact was in defence and contributing to turnovers and the breakdown. Because I was somewhat disappointed with his carrying (knocked backwards a number of times) and he seemed to struggle in the scrum. I would love Corbisiero to come back in at 1, with Marler dropping to the bench - but I haven't heard any injury news on Corbs and have no idea how far he is from recovery.

Scrum half: Dickson never deserved to lose his place and should retake it next week, because the basics are very important. I still think Youngs has plenty to contribute but so has Care

Mid Week game: I'm quite confused about how we will be using this game. Presumably we want to use it to see who is ready for a test match, but the problem is if you do that you can only play guys for so long if you also want them to play the second test.

 

[Patchey]

...Who never have and never will display any interest in showing any English rugby played outside of the UK, and then will only mutter brief mentions of it if there's no soccer on.

But when it is on the coverage is superb.

 

[Teh Mite]

What coverage of yesterdays match was there?

What coverage of the AIs is there?

What do they do during the 6N apart from interview Delalglio and harp on about "Jonny"?

 

[Patchey]

The commentary is pretty good and usually unbiased. I am also a big fan of listening to Brian Moore shout about scrums, it tickles me greatly.

Of course like you said apart from the Six Nations there is very little on. A crying sham considering that Rugby is still the only 'mainstream' sport we can honestly say we're half decent at on an international stage.

 

[Wilko's left boot]

The commentary is pretty good and usually unbiased. I am also a big fan of listening to Brian Moore shout about scrums, it tickles me greatly.

Of course like you said apart from the Six Nations there is very little on. A crying sham considering that Rugby is still the only 'mainstream' sport we can honestly say we're half decent at on an international stage.

Being ranked 1st in test cricket isn't too shabby surely? But I agree that the BBC is better than a lot of other commentary teams around (despite a couple of infuriating characters...), and that it would be nice to see more rugby covered by them.

 

[racingmetrofan]

Lots of great posts above. Teh Mite, I can see why you don't agree with the Tuilagi at 12 idea but the argument for it is common-sense: Tuilagi is a midfield weapon, but doesn't pass. Partly this is because he doesn't want to pass. Partly this is also because who is there to pass to with the way we are playing. As a 13 he is the end of the phase, whereas if we want the backs to play off him he needs to be in the middle of the phase with another guy outside him. Tuilagi sucks in men and people inevitably miss tackles on him. But that's ok, because at present he is eventually brought down and the ball is then recycled (with inadequate service and midfield creativity to really take advantage of this). Tuilagi does not really have an off-loading game so in my opinion the only way to make him play more for the team is to put someone outside him, probably Jonathan Joseph. As we saw when Tuilagi played alongisde Tindall it is possible to have the roles flexible, so that players can switch, or defend at 12 attack at 13, for example. Why can't we do that and just be a bit more savvy about using Manu.

Marler: I think his greatest impact was in defence and contributing to turnovers and the breakdown. Because I was somewhat disappointed with his carrying (knocked backwards a number of times) and he seemed to struggle in the scrum. I would love Corbisiero to come back in at 1, with Marler dropping to the bench - but I haven't heard any injury news on Corbs and have no idea how far he is from recovery.

Scrum half: Dickson never deserved to lose his place and should retake it next week, because the basics are very important. I still think Youngs has plenty to contribute but so has Care

Mid Week game: I'm quite confused about how we will be using this game. Presumably we want to use it to see who is ready for a test match, but the problem is if you do that you can only play guys for so long if you also want them to play the second test.

Or having him run off the 10 from his wing a la Ashton in the 2011 6n/off Flood.

The point is as he doesn't have an offloading game all he is good for is smashing into people or one on ones.

So logically we want him to be able to finish off moves on the wing like his brother is very good for at Leicester (and which Brown/Strettle aren't that good at) or a crash ball in the oppositions 22, or running into gaps where he just has to smash over the fullback.

He is best placed to do this on the wing. If we just want someone to run into Steyn, Steyn and DeVilliers and the pack tracking across then we may as well get a backrow to do it. Sure, we saw him knock over and run over DeVilliers 3 times in the test match. But we qant him to be doing this to their fullback or the wing where there isn't anyone else behind them!

 

[B10]

I thought Morgan looked a bit off the pace and maybe a option for next week could be:

6. Haskell
7. Robshaw
8. Johnson

19. Morgan

Morgan coming on as a dynamic sub when the game starts to break up.

With the midfield, I think Flood will start at 10 with Barritt and Tuilagi. Allen in at 12 if Barritt is injured. I do want to see Manu tried at 12 but I don't think Lancaster will risk trying it against South Africa.

 

[welshglory]

I think Barritt is too limited for the international game. He's like the English version of Andrew Bishop or Wynand Olivier but better.

The sooner Allen, Twelvetrees, Tuilagi step up the better for you guys i think.

 

[Teh Mite]

I thought Morgan looked a bit off the pace and maybe a option for next week could be:

6. Haskell
7. Robshaw
8. Johnson

19. Morgan

Morgan coming on as a dynamic sub when the game starts to break up.

Robshaw-Wood-Haskell will be nice if he (wood) is ever fit again. Johnson is only filler.