[Six Nations 2018] Round 2: England vs Wales (10/02/2018)

[Leonormous Boozer]

I'm petitioning the Queen to get @The Alpha Bro an honorary knighthood

I call this one "The Alpha Bro meets the Queen"

 

[truthteller]

Incorrect, New Zealand have been at their weakest these past couple years, compared to their team between 2011-15. That side would not have drawn to the Lions, it would have been a whitewash.

So Billy Vunipola isn't world class? Farrell? But you name Warburton who many welsh wanted dropped for Tipuric for the last couple of years.

Billy is world class but hes out. I simply mentioned england have only 2 world class players starting. Wales probably have 1 or 2 borderline world class in awj hapenny owens...Davies at scrum half may be pushing into that bracket too, hes the most dangerous 9 in europe imo....North on the bench with 33 test tries and lions tries has had a lousy season with injury but hes proven world class pedigree on his day

 

[truthteller]

Incorrect, New Zealand have been at their weakest these past couple years, compared to their team between 2011-15. That side would not have drawn to the Lions, it would have been a whitewash.

So Billy Vunipola isn't world class? Farrell? But you name Warburton who many welsh wanted dropped for Tipuric for the last couple of years.

Billy is world class but hes out. I simply mentioned england have only 2 world class players starting. Wales probably have 1 or 2 borderline world class in awj hapenny owens...Davies at scrum half may be pushing into that bracket too, hes the most dangerous 9 in europe imo...

Let's stop with this nonsense that Wales are the scarlets it is completely different , one is an international team trying to play a new style/brand of rugby that every other team ( Scotland , England,Ireland ) have been playing for the last 3 years and finally Garland has come around to the notion that we need to change. We don't have the efficiency or fluidity of the scarlets and won't have for at least a year or 2 , the scarlets have been playing their brand of rugby consistently now for 3 years and are coached by pivac/Jones so let's stop the comparisons the only affiliation is scarlets personnel on the welsh team.

On the game , England obviously start favourite 1/6 on Betfair , home advantage and a more cohesive unit than Wales at this moment should mean they win but I'm optimistic we can give them a game and then who knows.

Somebody mentioned that scarlets were overrated earlier, whoever thinks that is idiotic as scarlets are easily top 5 European club team and have been for the past 2 season , if anyone want to try me on that then go ahead !

.North on the bench with 33 test tries and lions tries has had a lousy season with injury but hes proven world class pedigree on his day

 

[Thingimubob]

I really don't buy this, England are up there with NZ and I don't think there's any denying it.
Under EJ they're 23-0-1 NZ are 23-1-3 and no one else is close Ireland come in at 16-1-7 while Wales are 13-1-11. There's a gulf, a big one. Ireland are catching up, they lost 5 of their games in 2016 and 2 in 2017 whereas Wales have stayed at the same rate of losing 5ish games in the two years. There's the claim that Wales have had to play NZ four times and lost them all but England would still have less than half as many losses if they're subtracted. NZ have come to Europe the past two years and have had only a few convincing wins and one loss to Ireland while dispatching the SH sides with ease for the most part, England have done exactly the same. England are good, so good that a Wales win this weekend massively bucks the trend and an impressive home win v Scotland doesn't really change that, they were hammered by England at home and beaten reasonably comfortably by France last year too, they haven't really managed to bring it outside Murrayfield yet. I don't think Wales at 4/1 in a two horse race is much value here and not because Wales aren't improving but rather that England really are that good.

That's fair enough dude, I'm just not convinced they're that far ahead of everyone else just yet. If they canter to a Grandslam this year and dispatch SA with ease in the summer (though can't see SA getting their act together anytime soon either way...) then I'll believe it.

Maybe it's because I've seen us beat these players in big games before? Maybe it's because we've seen demise in the form of some big sides (especially Australia, South Africa and especially since 2013, Wales), and annoyingly still haven't had the chance to see EJ era England face off against NZ? Maybe it's because I just don't want England to do well? I'll leave it to England to prove me wrong!

Yep the Scarlets have played great so Wales will. International test match rugby is a massive step up from league/European matches and how many players have we seen who haven't made the step up despite playing well for their team. Alex Goode is a prime example. Many ex-New Zealand players are so confused why he's not in the team, but he's never performed for England. On the other hand Ford and Youngs playing behind a pretty pathetic Tigers pack has made them look pretty bad recently, but last week, Ford especially didn't look rusty and was pulling the strings of the England attack. Basing Welsh performances on the Scarlets ridiculous. It might have an impact, but you can't use it as an indicator of a national sides performance.

Simple fact that most people seem to agree is that England at their best should beat Wales at their best. By how much is the debatable part. However on Saturday neither side will be at their best and both sides will make mistakes, but I'll stand by my previous statement that some of those Welsh players haven't properly been tested at international level and last week's game will have little to do with this week's game.

Yeah that's completely fair, as I said in my first post it remains to be seen that they can consistently transfer that to the Test arena - but hey, so far so good! I'm just praying that regardless of results this year, we'll stick with the Scarlets brand of rugby in the long run.

And again - completely agree that England at their best would likely beat Wales at their best at Twickenham, but it'd be a tight run thing for me that's all I'm saying. Was actually trying to think when was the last time both sides went into a 6N game against each other in good form with lots of confidence? Maybe 2013?

 

[truthteller]

Let's stop with this nonsense that Wales are the scarlets it is completely different , one is an international team trying to play a new style/brand of rugby that every other team ( Scotland , England,Ireland ) have been playing for the last 3 years and finally Garland has come around to the notion that we need to change. We don't have the efficiency or fluidity of the scarlets and won't have for at least a year or 2 , the scarlets have been playing their brand of rugby consistently now for 3 years and are coached by pivac/Jones so let's stop the comparisons the only affiliation is scarlets personnel on the welsh team.

On the game , England obviously start favourite 1/6 on Betfair , home advantage and a more cohesive unit than Wales at this moment should mean they win but I'm optimistic we can give them a game and then who knows.

Somebody mentioned that scarlets were overrated earlier, whoever thinks that is idiotic as scarlets are easily top 5 European club team and have been for the past 2 season , if anyone want to try me on that then go ahead !

Indeed. Scarlets won the league so are the best team int he pro 14 and they got through a group with Toulon and Bath to the last 8 so theres no doubt they are 1 of the best sides in europe. All done with over 60% homegrown players against sides with 5 to 10 times their budget.

 

[Thingimubob]

Well yes. Again I think you're underrating England. Results and ranking don't agree with you. Have England been as good in last 12 months as they were in EJ first 12 months no but still enough to be 2nd in the world (some will argue Ireland and I wouldn't fully disagree). Do I think England are so far ahead Wales cannot win, no off course they can. You can have an opinion on how far England are ahead which is subjective but you cannot deny England are better. So England at their best beat Wales at their best. I'm not saying Wales at their best cannot beat England.

Fair enough Scarlets have been impressive and Wales were great last week. Wales are on the up do doubt about it but there're still below England who are still pretty young themselves. I just don't think the gap is as close as you think it is.

Rankings certainly back your point up, I just struggle to take them super seriously when looking at single fixtures.

ha for example, Wales were in the top 10 in the FIFA World Rankings rankings not that all long ago, definitely wouldn't say we'd consistently beat a lot of the teams ranked below us! Just to clarify - not saying England don't deserve their ranking, as they are definitely the 2nd best.

Though I'd argue that recent 6N/RWC results between Wales and England for me show a pattern that it's usually a damn close thing - 2015 6N Wales 16 - 21 England, 2015 RWC England 25 - 28 Wales, 2016 6N England 25 - 21 Wales, 2017 6N Wales 16 - 21 England.

That includes two championship winning England sides (one GS) who were playing very well, against Wales teams struggling for form, though on the day picked up their game, as sides can do against quality opposition. Though only for the last 20 mins in 2016 standard Wales that.

Happy to agree to disagree though on this mate I'll carry on underrating you lot and you can carry on underrating us!

 

[ThebigARena]

Indeed. Scarlets won the league so are the best team int he pro 14 and they got through a group with Toulon and Bath to the last 8 so theres no doubt they are 1 of the best sides in europe. All done with over 60% homegrown players against sides with 5 to 10 times their budget.

Lots of good young talent coming through the ranks , certainly top 5 side in Europe , people talk about the bath loss but I watched and we just weren't firing that day and yet it was still a close game and everyone saw how we dominated the rematch and backed that up by beating The champions Toulon . I remember a few seasons ago we used to play in flashes of brilliance here and there but now we are a different beast we consistently perform and even the loss to Toulon in France there was a point in it it just proved the scarlets belong at the elite level of club rugby

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Indeed. Scarlets won the league so are the best team int he pro 14 and they got through a group with Toulon and Bath to the last 8 so theres no doubt they are 1 of the best sides in europe. All done with over 60% homegrown players against sides with 5 to 10 times their budget.

Were* the best team in the Pro 12!

 

[Thingimubob]

Let's stop with this nonsense that Wales are the scarlets it is completely different , one is an international team trying to play a new style/brand of rugby that every other team ( Scotland , England,Ireland ) have been playing for the last 3 years and finally Garland has come around to the notion that we need to change. We don't have the efficiency or fluidity of the scarlets and won't have for at least a year or 2 , the scarlets have been playing their brand of rugby consistently now for 3 years and are coached by pivac/Jones so let's stop the comparisons the only affiliation is scarlets personnel on the welsh team.

On the game , England obviously start favourite 1/6 on Betfair , home advantage and a more cohesive unit than Wales at this moment should mean they win but I'm optimistic we can give them a game and then who knows.

Somebody mentioned that scarlets were overrated earlier, whoever thinks that is idiotic as scarlets are easily top 5 European club team and have been for the past 2 season , if anyone want to try me on that then go ahead !

Completely agree with that, I guess my point is the whole hypothetical "Wales at their best" generally means the like of Scott Williams showing their Scarlets form in a Welsh shirt... something that's frustrated me a lot, as Pivac/Jones seem to get more out of theirs players than the Welsh set up does...

Lots of good young talent coming through the ranks , certainly top 5 side in Europe , people talk about the bath loss but I watched and we just weren't firing that day and yet it was still a close game and everyone saw how we dominated the rematch and backed that up by beating The champions Toulon . I remember a few seasons ago we used to play in flashes of brilliance here and there but now we are a different beast we consistently perform and even the loss to Toulon in France there was a point in it it just proved the scarlets belong at the elite level of club rugby

Yeah I watched that Bath game too, weather did not help the Scarlets at all either, which is for me something they need to work on. Even in the games they won over Christmas, there was a noticeable difference when the weather was poop, the Scarlets struggled. Ironic for a Welsh team I know...

Also ironically Priestland was the deciding factor in that Scarlets - Bath game, he played the conditions perfectly and his kicking game was ridiculously good.

 

[truthteller]

Completely agree with that, I guess my point is the whole hypothetical "Wales at their best" generally means the like of Scott Williams showing their Scarlets form in a Welsh shirt... something that's frustrated me a lot, as Pivac/Jones seem to get more out of theirs players than the Welsh set up does...



Yeah I watched that Bath game too, weather did not help the Scarlets at all either, which is for me something they need to work on. Even in the games they won over Christmas, there was a noticeable difference when the weather was poop, the Scarlets struggled. Ironic for a Welsh team I know...

Also ironically Priestland was the deciding factor in that Scarlets - Bath game, he played the conditions perfectly and his kicking game was ridiculously good.

I went to that game, it was a monsoon. I mean it was bonkers weather, major storm massive winds torrential rain should have been postponed. But Bath played it better hats off to them faletau and priestland 2 old heads were superb

 

[bushytop]

Were* the best team in the Pro 12!

I thought we were all going by recent historical context around here... their the current Champs, top of their conference and battered the majority of Glasgow's best players (the only Pro14 team with more points) when they were representing their country only 5 days ago.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I thought we were all going by recent historical context around here... their the current Champs, top of their conference and battered the majority of Glasgow's best players (the only Pro14 team with more points) when they were representing their country only 5 days ago.

Leinster went 6 for 6 is the strongest Euro pool and match the Scarlets for Pro 14 wins, I don't think any club in Europe would want to play Leinster ahead of the Scarlets this season!

 

[bushytop]

Leinster went 6 for 6 is the strongest Euro pool and match the Scarlets for Pro 14 wins, I don't think any club in Europe would want to play Leinster ahead of the Scarlets this season!

Yup their great... but while we're extending it to Champions Cup I'll extend it to the Pro12 play offs against Munster and Leinster last year. They are the current champions and have continued to perform during that difficult second season... I'll stand by my position. Now who teams would 'rather' play, that's a crucially a different thing.

 

[truthteller]

Leinster went 6 for 6 is the strongest Euro pool and match the Scarlets for Pro 14 wins, I don't think any club in Europe would want to play Leinster ahead of the Scarlets this season!

2 fantastic sides, scarlets have the edge atm simply because they demolished them in last years pro 12 semi final in leinster

 

[truthteller]

So hard to know how good england are having not played the all blacks under eddie jones, they were competitive in new zealand 3 yrs a go with a bulk of the same players but in the end lost 3 - 0 and were hammered in the last test where the ab's back line tore them to pieces

 

[ThebigARena]

Were* the best team in the Pro 12!

Current champs meaning we are the best until beaten and we top our group ahead of Leinster

 

[NickBD]

Not sure I'd class Scarlets as elite just yet. Been how long since they even made the playoffs? To be on that level they have win the European cup for that or even just the final hell even the quarter-finals. Then stay on that level for a few years. Before people shout at me Scarlets are playing very well at the moment and I would agree a top 5 team this year.

 

[truthteller]

Not sure I'd class Scarlets as elite just yet. Been how long since they even made the playoffs? To be on that level they have win the European cup for that or even just the final hell even the quarter-finals. Then stay on that level for a few years. Before people shout at me Scarlets are playing very well at the moment and I would agree a top 5 team this year.

Fair points. The other point to note is a vast bulk of their squad is home grown and welsh qualified, up against sides with 5 to 10 times the budget, that is a huge factor when it comes to assisting the national side. How many Toulon stars are homegrown I wonder and how is that affecting the french teams abysmal performances for several years

 

[NickBD]

So hard to know how good england are having not played the all blacks under eddie jones, they were competitive in new zealand 3 yrs a go with a bulk of the same players but in the end lost 3 - 0 and were hammered in the last test where the ab's back line tore them to pieces

No it isn't. 2 6Ns, a grand slam, 3-0 in Oz and undefeated in every Summer/Autumn tour available, 1 loss in 2 years and so on. It's very easy to see how good England are. No were not on NZ level yet, they probably would have beaten us over past 2 years. See you're proving my point about underrating England.

 

[NickBD]

Fair points. The other point to note is a vast bulk of their squad is home grown and welsh qualified, up against sides with 5 to 10 times the budget, that is a huge factor when it comes to assisting the national side. How many Toulon stars are homegrown I wonder and how is that affecting the french teams abysmal performances for several years

I agree with you. Looking at the resources you've done better then most, while playing well. To be elite you have to win or at least get close to it and stay there.