[Six Nations 2018] Round 2: England vs Wales (10/02/2018)

[MarkyH]

Sorry but that exactly what it sounds like to me. I wasn't talking about Wales fans in general just that post. I think he's underrating England.

The poster said he'd have no idea who'd win if both teams are at their very best. If England play at their best Wales just won't win no matter how good they will be on the day, England win and in my opinion won't be a close game. Your kind of proving my point after 1 impressive game Wales game you think at their best they can compete with England at their best, I don't think so. For reasons I said in my other reply. I know it sounds like England arrogance but it was just a hypothetical question if both teams are at their best.

I'm not saying Wales can't or won't win, the point was if both teams are the top of their game England win every time. But if England don't show up or even close to average of course Wales can win, which can happen. If England at playing to there full potential at home only NZ or Ireland have a shot.

YEP! This!

If teams play faultlessly (at their best) then NZ will beat England. England will draw with Ireland and beat everyone else Our love in with Ireland can continue till match day 5

 

[bushytop]

YEP! This!

If teams play faultlessly (at their best) then NZ will beat England. England will draw with Ireland and beat everyone else Our love in with Ireland can continue till match day 5

Yes and if Scotland had played at their best on Saturday as they were 2 places higher than us in the rankings at the time it would have been different.

 

[MarkyH]

Yes and if Scotland had played at their best on Saturday as they were 2 places higher than us in the rankings at the time it would have been different.

Yes, as we're talking about teams at their best, playing their best. But test match Rugby isn't that. Teams have off days, teams have injured players and teams have home advantage.

All building up to a cracker. England by 50

 

[Thingimubob]

Sorry but that exactly what it sounds like to me. I wasn't talking about Wales fans in general just that post. I think he's underrating England.

The poster said he'd have no idea who'd win if both teams are at their very best. If England play at their best Wales just won't win no matter how good they will be on the day, England win and in my opinion won't be a close game. Your kind of proving my point after 1 impressive game Wales game you think at their best they can compete with England at their best, I don't think so. For reasons I said in my other reply. I know it sounds like England arrogance but it was just a hypothetical question if both teams are at their best.

I'm not saying Wales can't or won't win, the point was if both teams are the top of their game England win every time. But if England don't show up or even close to average of course Wales can win, which can happen. If England at playing to there full potential at home only NZ or Ireland have a shot.

Well you are perfectly entitled to your opinion mate, but I personally disagree because, as good as England have been under EJ, I don't believe that they are leaps and bounds ahead of Wales / everyone else in the same was NZ are, like you are suggesting?

Again, not really? I'm not basing this off the Scotland game alone. I'm basing this on the fact that I've seen what the Scarlets core of this side playing at its best looks like, and it has been a damn impressive sight to behold, and have seen what the likes of Moriarty, Navidi, Adams, Tipuric and North do at their best... On top of that there's a lot of players in this squad that have beaten England at Twickenham as well, so if they're playing at their best why shouldn't they be in with a shot, even if England are at the best?

And anyway, 6N games between these two are generally pretty close anyway, especially when both turn up on the day!

Either way, bit of a weird hypothetical as part of a team playing "at their best" is usually stopping the other team playing at their best

 

[Reiser99]

Well you are perfectly entitled to your opinion mate, but I personally disagree because, as good as England have been under EJ, I don't believe that they are leaps and bounds ahead of Wales / everyone else in the same was NZ are, like you are suggesting?

Again, not really? I'm not basing this off the Scotland game alone. I'm basing this on the fact that I've seen what the Scarlets core of this side playing at its best looks like, and it has been a damn impressive sight to behold, and have seen what the likes of Moriarty, Navidi, Adams, Tipuric and North do at their best... On top of that there's a lot of players in this squad that have beaten England at Twickenham as well, so if they're playing at their best why shouldn't they be in with a shot, even if England are at the best?

And anyway, 6N games between these two are generally pretty close anyway, especially when both turn up on the day!

Either way, bit of a weird hypothetical as part of a team playing "at their best" is usually stopping the other team playing at their best

Yep the Scarlets have played great so Wales will. International test match rugby is a massive step up from league/European matches and how many players have we seen who haven't made the step up despite playing well for their team. Alex Goode is a prime example. Many ex-New Zealand players are so confused why he's not in the team, but he's never performed for England. On the other hand Ford and Youngs playing behind a pretty pathetic Tigers pack has made them look pretty bad recently, but last week, Ford especially didn't look rusty and was pulling the strings of the England attack. Basing Welsh performances on the Scarlets ridiculous. It might have an impact, but you can't use it as an indicator of a national sides performance.

Simple fact that most people seem to agree is that England at their best should beat Wales at their best. By how much is the debatable part. However on Saturday neither side will be at their best and both sides will make mistakes, but I'll stand by my previous statement that some of those Welsh players haven't properly been tested at international level and last week's game will have little to do with this week's game.

 

[NickBD]

Well you are perfectly entitled to your opinion mate, but I personally disagree because, as good as England have been under EJ, I don't believe that they are leaps and bounds ahead of Wales / everyone else in the same was NZ are, like you are suggesting?

Again, not really? I'm not basing this off the Scotland game alone. I'm basing this on the fact that I've seen what the Scarlets core of this side playing at its best looks like, and it has been a damn impressive sight to behold, and have seen what the likes of Moriarty, Navidi, Adams, Tipuric and North do at their best... On top of that there's a lot of players in this squad that have beaten England at Twickenham as well, so if they're playing at their best why shouldn't they be in with a shot, even if England are at the best?

And anyway, 6N games between these two are generally pretty close anyway, especially when both turn up on the day!

Either way, bit of a weird hypothetical as part of a team playing "at their best" is usually stopping the other team playing at their best

Well yes. Again I think you're underrating England. Results and ranking don't agree with you. Have England been as good in last 12 months as they were in EJ first 12 months no but still enough to be 2nd in the world (some will argue Ireland and I wouldn't fully disagree). Do I think England are so far ahead Wales cannot win, no off course they can. You can have an opinion on how far England are ahead which is subjective but you cannot deny England are better. So England at their best beat Wales at their best. I'm not saying Wales at their best cannot beat England.

Fair enough Scarlets have been impressive and Wales were great last week. Wales are on the up do doubt about it but there're still below England who are still pretty young themselves. I just don't think the gap is as close as you think it is.

 

[bushytop]

Yep the Scarlets have played great so Wales will. International test match rugby is a massive step up from league/European matches and how many players have we seen who haven't made the step up despite playing well for their team. Alex Goode is a prime example. Many ex-New Zealand players are so confused why he's not in the team, but he's never performed for England. On the other hand Ford and Youngs playing behind a pretty pathetic Tigers pack has made them look pretty bad recently, but last week, Ford especially didn't look rusty and was pulling the strings of the England attack. Basing Welsh performances on the Scarlets ridiculous. It might have an impact, but you can't use it as an indicator of a national sides performance.

Simple fact that most people seem to agree is that England at their best should beat Wales at their best. By how much is the debatable part. However on Saturday neither side will be at their best and both sides will make mistakes, but I'll stand by my previous statement that some of those Welsh players haven't properly been tested at international level and last week's game will have little to do with this week's game.

I actually rate Goode highly and am surprised he never gets a look in.

I think the reason us Welsh are putting a little more stock in the whole Scarlets thing is that while I totally agree with you on the fact that many club players have seemed more than ready for test match rugby and failed... it is normally one or two, sometimes three players from a club and if your really lucky a combination or 2. The difference here is the amount of players from an at present very effective club side. Not just combinations but very nearly a whole back line and 4 forwards (including a whole front row).

As I've stated in a previous comment... this in no way makes us favourites as there is no way the 2nd best test team in the world shouldnt beat the Pro12 (now 14) Champions. The truly fascinating part is the age old question of how a very good in form club side would go against a very good and successful international team.

There are certainly pluses and negatives to either side winning albeit FAR more positives on the side of the home 2 time 6 nations champions... but there are one or two potential pluses that the Scarlets should inherently have at their disposal, namely a cohesion and unity that international teams will always struggle to attain due to the short amount of time that national squads have together.

It's going to be very interesting.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Well you are perfectly entitled to your opinion mate, but I personally disagree because, as good as England have been under EJ, I don't believe that they are leaps and bounds ahead of Wales / everyone else in the same was NZ are, like you are suggesting?

I really don't buy this, England are up there with NZ and I don't think there's any denying it.
Under EJ they're 23-0-1 NZ are 23-1-3 and no one else is close Ireland come in at 16-1-7 while Wales are 13-1-11. There's a gulf, a big one. Ireland are catching up, they lost 5 of their games in 2016 and 2 in 2017 whereas Wales have stayed at the same rate of losing 5ish games in the two years. There's the claim that Wales have had to play NZ four times and lost them all but England would still have less than half as many losses if they're subtracted. NZ have come to Europe the past two years and have had only a few convincing wins and one loss to Ireland while dispatching the SH sides with ease for the most part, England have done exactly the same. England are good, so good that a Wales win this weekend massively bucks the trend and an impressive home win v Scotland doesn't really change that, they were hammered by England at home and beaten reasonably comfortably by France last year too, they haven't really managed to bring it outside Murrayfield yet. I don't think Wales at 4/1 in a two horse race is much value here and not because Wales aren't improving but rather that England really are that good.

 

[Lé Ddanno]

VC sock in the house?

 

[bushytop]

I really don't buy this, England are up there with NZ and I don't think there's any denying it.
Under EJ they're 23-0-1 NZ are 23-1-3 and no one else is close Ireland come in at 16-1-7 while Wales are 13-1-11. There's a gulf, a big one. Ireland are catching up, they lost 5 of their games in 2016 and 2 in 2017 whereas Wales have stayed at the same rate of losing 5ish games in the two years. There's the claim that Wales have had to play NZ four times and lost them all but England would still have less than half as many losses if they're subtracted. NZ have come to Europe the past two years and have had only a few convincing wins and one loss to Ireland while dispatching the SH sides with ease for the most part, England have done exactly the same. England are good, so good that a Wales win this weekend massively bucks the trend and an impressive home win v Scotland doesn't really change that, they were hammered by England at home and beaten reasonably comfortably by France last year too, they haven't really managed to bring it outside Murrayfield yet. I don't think Wales at 4/1 in a two horse race is much value here and not because Wales aren't improving but rather that England really are that good.

Agreed that England are indeed very good, would not on your suggestion that you hammered us last year.

Think I misread and you talking about the Scots in reference to the hammering...

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Agreed that England are indeed very good, would not on your suggestion that you hammered us last year.

Think I misread and you talking about the Scots in reference to the hammering...

Yep, the Scots are a home team right now! I'm also not English!

 

[TommiG88]

Yes and if Scotland had played at their best on Saturday as they were 2 places higher than us in the rankings at the time it would have been different.

Below Ireland, all the teams are much of a muchness. I had Wales to win by more than a score of Saturday due to Scottish injuries in the front row.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I think we're pretty clear about the way we play. The players know the system and each other.

We know what to expect, but we can't say that for the Welsh.

It's very early days for their new sexy style and they've introduced a number of players. That brings uncertainty, added to which the new style is inherently riskier anyway. If it all comes off they could look spectacular. But if it doesn't, it could be very painful. Although they looked good against the Scots, let's not forget we stuck 60 on that lot last year.

All the logic points to a home win in my favourite 6N fixture.

 

[dullonien]

England are a great team under EJ. Apart from one or two positions they're strong across the field, and have the strength in depth to absorb most injuries without it affecting them. They are favourites on Sat, their win/loss ratio dictates that.

Doesn't mean I'm not confident that Wales can go there and win. Sport would be very boring if nothing every changed and the favourites won every match.

I truly believe that if this Welsh side plays at its best, with the focus the Scarlets have put into handling skills over the past 2-3 years, this side is capable of beating anyone. I wouldn't be saying that if Lydiate, Biggar, Roberts and Cuthbert were involved, because I don't think they had/have the ability to play heads up rugby to find and expose weaknesses in the opposition defense. Shingler, Patchell, Parkes and Steff Evans do though, and they've got the basic skillset to make the most of it as well.

I'm happy if you label me an optimist, or that I'm underestimating England. I'm a passionate Welsh supporter, so of course I'm optimistic and underrate England!

 

[spartan32]

I think having JJ back is a smart move. He's always such a potent attacking threat and will ask a lot more questions of the Welsh defence and keep them guessing. Teo coming in late to smash into tired defenders and see out a game makes sense.

There's also the wide cover JJ offers that's has already been covered in previous posts, and I expect a lot more kick chase from England in this match, especially with Care putting those little dinks in behind he likes so much, perfect for a fast centre like JJ to get on the end of.

Glad to see Simmonds starting. Think he adds extra attacking threat. If the England pack can keep on top of Wales the England backs could have a really good day, but the Welsh pack is usually pretty handy.

Fingers crossed for dry weather and some champagne rugby...

All ending in an inevitable English victory of course

 

[truthteller]

Good selection of JJ, on his day top class centre. The weather may also be a factor here, looks like rain which I think helps England. The welsh will play keep ball and go through phases as they see englands breakdown work as a weakness. England will look to steamroller them with the second rows and the rolling maul. I see this as very tight. Englands winning run was good but they didnt play the all blacks and lets face it this is a time when the all blacks are the only good side around. The boks and french are dreadful, the welsh have been in transition a few years, the irish are good on their day though not great. aussie blow hot and cold. England have 2 world class players, itoje and watson... Wales have a few too but theyre all injured (Jon davies faletau warburton)

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I'm petitioning the Queen to get @The Alpha Bro an honorary knighthood

 

[TommiG88]

Good selection of JJ, on his day top class centre. The weather may also be a factor here, looks like rain which I think helps England. The welsh will play keep ball and go through phases as they see englands breakdown work as a weakness. England will look to steamroller them with the second rows and the rolling maul. I see this as very tight. Englands winning run was good but they didnt play the all blacks and lets face it this is a time when the all blacks are the only good side around. The boks and french are dreadful, the welsh have been in transition a few years, the irish are good on their day though not great. aussie blow hot and cold. England have 2 world class players, itoje and watson... Wales have a few too but theyre all injured (Jon davies faletau warburton)

Incorrect, New Zealand have been at their weakest these past couple years, compared to their team between 2011-15. That side would not have drawn to the Lions, it would have been a whitewash.

So Billy Vunipola isn't world class? Farrell? But you name Warburton who many welsh wanted dropped for Tipuric for the last couple of years.

 

[truthteller]

Sorry but that exactly what it sounds like to me. I wasn't talking about Wales fans in general just that post. I think he's underrating England.

The poster said he'd have no idea who'd win if both teams are at their very best. If England play at their best Wales just won't win no matter how good they will be on the day, England win and in my opinion won't be a close game. Your kind of proving my point after 1 impressive game Wales game you think at their best they can compete with England at their best, I don't think so. For reasons I said in my other reply. I know it sounds like England arrogance but it was just a hypothetical question if both teams are at their best.

I'm not saying Wales can't or won't win, the point was if both teams are the top of their game England win every time. But if England don't show up or even close to average of course Wales can win, which can happen. If England at playing to there full potential at home only NZ or Ireland have a shot.

Thats not what welsh fans are saying at all. Welsh fans believe in the style they are playing and theyre not basing it on one win but on beating the springboks easily 3 years in a row, on hammering the over-rated Irish team last year. Yes on the scarlets ability to smash leinster and munster to win the pro 14 last year and march to the european quarter finals on a team that is over 60% homegrown talent. Much of which is playing saturday. They have some seriously talented players, frankly their halfbacks are more talented than Englands and simply need good possession. If you study styles of matches and sides, England Wales has been tight as heck for many years. Mainly as wales know englands players inside out and know their strengths and weaknesses. So too the other way around. The last 3 years gatland has been foolish to not bring in more fresh blood sooner and widen his style of play. This has hurt wales. But now finally their style has evolved and more new kids with bags of talent are showing their ability. IF they can play like this under massive pressure at HQ against a powerful english front 5, then england will find them difficult to stop for 80 minutes.

 

[ThebigARena]

Let's stop with this nonsense that Wales are the scarlets it is completely different , one is an international team trying to play a new style/brand of rugby that every other team ( Scotland , England,Ireland ) have been playing for the last 3 years and finally Garland has come around to the notion that we need to change. We don't have the efficiency or fluidity of the scarlets and won't have for at least a year or 2 , the scarlets have been playing their brand of rugby consistently now for 3 years and are coached by pivac/Jones so let's stop the comparisons the only affiliation is scarlets personnel on the welsh team.

On the game , England obviously start favourite 1/6 on Betfair , home advantage and a more cohesive unit than Wales at this moment should mean they win but I'm optimistic we can give them a game and then who knows.

Somebody mentioned that scarlets were overrated earlier, whoever thinks that is idiotic as scarlets are easily top 5 European club team and have been for the past 2 season , if anyone want to try me on that then go ahead !