[Six Nations 2018] Round 2: England vs Wales (10/02/2018)

[truthteller]

Here's the problem with both of Wales' recent slams their record outside the tournament has been appalling. In 2008 they had just lost a game against Fiji at a world cup! There was also a loss to Japan in there.

Why Wales have been good the've never backed up a slam with sustained success outside of it. To me its less of weak 6 nations but maybe Wales were never quite as good as thier fans wanted them to be. England have two real golden era's since professionalism which was 2002-3 and now the parst two years both of which have been around slams. Wales havent had that sucess.

eh? world cup semi final 2011 and quarter final 2015? Hardly appalling lol

 

[bushytop]

Here's the problem with both of Wales' recent slams their record outside the tournament has been appalling. In 2008 they had just lost a game against Fiji at a world cup! There was also a loss to Japan in there.

Why Wales have been good the've never backed up a slam with sustained success outside of it. To me its less of weak 6 nations but maybe Wales were never quite as good as thier fans wanted them to be. England have two real golden era's since professionalism which was 2002-3 and now the parst two years both of which have been around slams. Wales havent had that sucess.

Also, Wales did follow up the 2012 slam with the 2013 championship so there was that.

 

[Scotty]

15 Mike Brown (Harlequins 65 caps)
14 Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby 29 caps)
13 Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby 36 caps)
12 Owen Farrell (Saracens 54 caps)
11 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers 30 caps)
10 George Ford (Leicester Tigers 41 caps)
9 Danny Care (Harlequins 77 caps)

1 Mako Vunipola (Saracens 45 caps)
2 Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints 90 caps)
3 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers 78 caps)
4 Joe Launchbury (Wasps 48 caps)
5 Maro Itoje (Saracens 15 caps)
6 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints 62 caps)
7 Chris Robshaw (Harlequins 60 caps)
8 Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs 4 caps)

Replacements
16 Jamie George (Saracens 21 caps)
17 Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs 1 cap)
18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs 6 caps)
19 George Kruis (Saracens 22 caps)
20 Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby 4 caps)
21 Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens 27 caps)
22 Ben Te'o (Worcester Warriors 9 caps)
23 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs 24 caps)

 

[Scotty]

JJ starts for teo and wigglesworth on the bench for youngs. Better luck next time mercer.

 

[The5thOfficial]

However he did Pick Rob Howley....

.... indeed he did, as part of reasonably successful Lions tours!

 

[bushytop]

Although I thought JJ would start, I was hoping that Teo would keep his place. Even though I am a big Scott Williams fan, I think he will have difficulties dealing with JJ when feeding off Ford and Farrell.

 

[Jakedood]

.... indeed he did, as part of reasonably successful Lions tours!

Susccessful after Sexton and Farrell took over running the Attack

All Im saying is, Gatland's selections arent always a justification of ability, as many followers of Welsh rugby will attest to over the years

 

[The5thOfficial]

Whatever makes you feel better...

If it were in Cardiff and Wales were the first host nation to ever get knocked out of a World Cup at the first round stage, I'm pretty sure you would see it differently. With the uphill task we have ahead of ourselves, we will take some solace from it regardless.

Both England and Ireland are incredibly difficult matches when their at home... it amazes me that our two most recent slams came in this rotation. What I will say is that during 2008 in particular and to a lesser degree in 2012, us Welsh were being told exactly the same thing then before our trip up the m4. We were told that we had no chance in either England or Ireland... do you know what we were told after beating them? Sh@t 6 nations, even though all the talk at the start of those tournaments was around how competitive it was.

I guarantee everyone here that if... and it's a BIG FAT if Wales win the next two matches, the consensus on here (& elsewhere) will be that Wales won a sh@t 6 nations, where as if either England or Ireland had won it in EXACTLY the same manner, there would be no issue. There does seem to be some double standards within this England Ireland love-in... thankfully we saved Scotland from joining what would have been a disturbing threesome last week.

Good post this!

 

[BenJeffrey]

It's probably going to slightly change those loop attacks from England as well, as well as the defence. JJ is a much better defender in those wider channels.

I can see England keeping the same sort of line speed, but with 13 and winger firing an extra 4/5 yards out of the line to try and force Wales back inside. It leaves a hole behind, but then again that's where Brown's experience and positioning come into play.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

JJ starts for teo and wigglesworth on the bench for youngs. Better luck next time mercer.

I can't see Mercer getting in anytime soon - who's Eddie going to drop?
He's been a big fan of Underhill for ages, Simmonds is undroppable after last week and Lawes/Itoje/Robshaw are some of the first names on the team sheet.
Once EJ has settled on a side he rarely switches it up

It's gonna be interesting to see what happens when Binny is back,
Presumably Kruis will go

 

[McTallshort]

15 Mike Brown (Harlequins 65 caps)
14 Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby 29 caps)
13 Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby 36 caps)
12 Owen Farrell (Saracens 54 caps)
11 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers 30 caps)
10 George Ford (Leicester Tigers 41 caps)
9 Danny Care (Harlequins 77 caps)

1 Mako Vunipola (Saracens 45 caps)
2 Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints 90 caps)
3 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers 78 caps)
4 Joe Launchbury (Wasps 48 caps)
5 Maro Itoje (Saracens 15 caps)
6 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints 62 caps)
7 Chris Robshaw (Harlequins 60 caps)
8 Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs 4 caps)

Replacements
16 Jamie George (Saracens 21 caps)
17 Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs 1 cap)
18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs 6 caps)
19 George Kruis (Saracens 22 caps)
20 Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby 4 caps)
21 Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens 27 caps)
22 Ben Te'o (Worcester Warriors 9 caps)
23 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs 24 caps)

Fairly predictable side to be honest. This will be a real test for Simmons after last week. Lets hope hes up to it.

 

[MikeTheNative]

JJ will be better defensively in the outer channels than Teo and i think will provide a greater attacking threat. Wlliams and Parkes are lumps themselves so shouldn't have too much problem dealing with Teo however they aren't the fastest. I'm a big fan of Care so I don't think England are weaker at 9 from that change, however I think Wigglesworth coming off the bench is a big step down from Care last week. England's only issue I can see in that team is that back row which struggled last week, could be off set by their superior tight 5 though.

England to win by 7.

 

[NickBD]

I can't see Mercer getting in anytime soon - who's Eddie going to drop?
He's been a big fan of Underhill for ages, Simmonds is undroppable after last week and Lawes/Itoje/Robshaw are some of the first names on the team sheet.
Once EJ has settled on a side he rarely switches it up

It's gonna be interesting to see what happens when Binny is back,
Presumably Kruis will go

I can see Mercer getting mins in the summer. Looking at the stat of minutes played by Lions players England take up the top 10. He's gonna have to rest a few, you don't want a burnt out year before world cup. This 6N and the summer is probably it for testing new players and combinations. With Binny, Hughes, Simmonds, Robshaw, Underhill, 1 of Itoje/Lawes it's gonna be interesting to see what back 3 Eddie goes with.

On 23 glad Eddie is starting JJ, did think he'd bring in Nowell but I guess he is just back from injury.

 

[Which Tyler]

eh? world cup semi final 2011 and quarter final 2015? Hardly appalling lol

If the point is about consistency beyond 1 tournament, then using solitary tournaments isn't really going to counter it; however

Also, Wales did follow up the 2012 slam with the 2013 championship so there was that.

Is absolutely a fair example of a purple path; RWC11 SF => 2012 Slam => 2013 6N champions; counts (though I can't recall your AI and SI performances in between - they'd have to be pretty bad to negate that as a run).


TBH it's only really the 2005 GS I've seen degraded as a fuke, unworthy or devalued; and mostly because it (seemed to) come from nowhere whilst also being particularly poor years for England and France. You then repeated it in 2008; and it seemed much more "earned" - it wasn't a vintage year; but it was definitely an earned Grand Slam.
Basically, the problem was that in 2005 you were the best of a bad bunch and still not clearly the best. in 2008 you were the best of a decent-ish bunch, and were more comfortably the best. Outside of banter, I don't think people continued calling the 2005GS "devalued" after you got the 2008 one, as we all realised that you did have the players to deserve it. Most of the continuation after that was annoying Welsh buggers being annoyed at how everyone was calling it devalued - even though no-one was

 

[Thingimubob]

To be fair this Welsh backline has played a chunk of their key English counterparts (Ford, Watson and JJ) this year and kept them quiet twice, so if they can do that again that'll be a huge step towards victory. Naturally the added threat of Farrell and Care does change things there though, with Farrell scoring for fun this season and Care always being a hell of a threat. Plus May and Brown on their day are also very dangerous, even if I think England probably have better options.

Really? the 2nd best team in the world at home. No doubt Wales were impressive last week but England are still a better team with better players and at HQ.

By sounds of it you're overrating Wales and underrating England.

Well no, not really?

As others have said, you'd struggle to find any reasonable Welsh fan who's saying we're favourites and should expect a win. However it's not unreasonable for us to be quietly confident of a potential success considering the promising signs from the Autumn, the performance against a team expected to batter us last week, and the fact that many of the players and coaches have quite a good record at Twickenham.

I completely agree with @dullonien that if both teams play to their best it'll be a close (and probably high scoring) game, considering that while we may not have seen the best of this Welsh squad internationally (yet), the majority of them have consistently been putting in some brilliant, top class performances (individually and as a unit) in some very high profile club games over the past season and a half. While it remains to be seen if that form will consistently transfer over to test rugby, there's promising signs so far.

Don't get me wrong though, even in that situation my money would still be on England to win, because as you said, they are deservedly the 2nd best team in the world, but just saying it'd be a hell of a game!

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Wasn't actually laughing, just pointing out that TommiG88 was undermining it as an achievement but if the shoe was on the other foot it would be used against us. You seem very touchy on this subject, are you sure that your alright... I mean come on it's been 2 and a half years, a grand slam and two championships since... can't believe it still triggers you so...

You are mistaken if you think I'm "triggered", it's pointing out that England being the first hosts to crash out is a myth primarily brought up by the Welsh and yet the truth is it was actually the Welsh who were the first hosts to crash out. I may ask why are you so sensitive about having that pointed out?

 

[bushytop]

You are mistaken if you think I'm "triggered", it's pointing out that England being the first hosts to crash out is a myth primarily brought up by the Welsh and yet the truth is it was actually the Welsh who were the first hosts to crash out. I may ask why are you so sensitive about having that pointed out?

Maybe it was reading your comment while imagining your Rick avatar was speaking it... but no now you've pointed that out I can clearly see that you are definitely in no way, absolutely not triggered... I will just sit quietly in my place, which you put me.

 

[TommiG88]

Wasn't actually laughing, just pointing out that TommiG88 was undermining it as an achievement but if the shoe was on the other foot it would be used against us. You seem very touchy on this subject, are you sure that your alright... I mean come on it's been 2 and a half years, a grand slam and two championships since... can't believe it still triggers you so...

I'll think you'll find I was taking the **** out of earlier posts... for example, "friendlies don't count".

If you win the grand slam, I would be bloody shocked and certainly not call it a **** 6nations.

Edit: furthermore, I've never called a 6 nations poor. Always exciting, and any team that wins it, deserves it as there is no easy way.

 

[NickBD]

Well no, not really?

As others have said, you'd struggle to find any reasonable Welsh fan who's saying we're favourites and should expect a win. However it's not unreasonable for us to be quietly confident of a potential success considering the promising signs from the Autumn, the performance against a team expected to batter us last week, and the fact that many of the players and coaches have quite a good record at Twickenham.

I completely agree with @dullonien that if both teams play to their best it'll be a close (and probably high scoring) game, considering that while we may not have seen the best of this Welsh squad internationally (yet), the majority of them have consistently been putting in some brilliant, top class performances (individually and as a unit) in some very high profile club games over the past season and a half. While it remains to be seen if that form will consistently transfer over to test rugby, there's promising signs so far.

Don't get me wrong though, even in that situation my money would still be on England to win, because as you said, they are deservedly the 2nd best team in the world, but just saying it'd be a hell of a game!

Sorry but that exactly what it sounds like to me. I wasn't talking about Wales fans in general just that post. I think he's underrating England.

The poster said he'd have no idea who'd win if both teams are at their very best. If England play at their best Wales just won't win no matter how good they will be on the day, England win and in my opinion won't be a close game. Your kind of proving my point after 1 impressive game Wales game you think at their best they can compete with England at their best, I don't think so. For reasons I said in my other reply. I know it sounds like England arrogance but it was just a hypothetical question if both teams are at their best.

I'm not saying Wales can't or won't win, the point was if both teams are the top of their game England win every time. But if England don't show up or even close to average of course Wales can win, which can happen. If England at playing to there full potential at home only NZ or Ireland have a shot.

 

[bushytop]

I'll think you'll find I was taking the **** out of earlier posts... for example, "friendlies don't count".

If you win the grand slam, I would be bloody shocked and certainly not call it a **** 6nations.

Edit: furthermore, I've never called a 6 nations poor. Always exciting, and any team that wins it, deserves it as there is no easy way.

Wasn't mentioning you in relation to the sh@t 6N thing, that is more of a general theme on here... I was mentioning you to explain that my point was indeed a point and not that I was having a dig.