[Six Nations 2018] Round 2: England vs Wales (10/02/2018)

[bushytop]

Yeah and don't get me wrong Wales have lots of reason for optimism but because your coach is a complete bellend you're significantly further behind in the development of that way of playing than you should be, and the evidence of other teams trying to change the way they play has typically been that it takes a while and that there are some false dawns along the way (HI SCOTLAND!!!) And the scarlets way of playing has not been adequately tested at international level.

And again, many of the changes which have made the difference were enforced and Gatland wouldn't otherwise have made.

Agree on all counts, that's why we are all feeling so great about it... the fact that things are FINALLY moving in the right direction. We're not stupid, we just get easily excited... if you're not Welsh you really have no idea how all encompassing the game is for us and when a few things seem to go the right way it makes our whole existence (actually not an exaggeration) a little easier.

 

[ncurd]

(before its banned by the politically correct thought police)

Id say welcome to the forum but in some thing like 3 posts you've already wound me up the wrong way by spouting political nonsense. Please don't do it in a match thread for Wales/England game that so far has been relatively sane. A comment like that didnt need to be said.

 

[truthteller]

Id say welcome to the forum but in some thing like 3 posts you've already wound me up the wrong way by spouting political nonsense. Please don't do it in a match thread for Wales/England game that so far has been relatively sane. A comment like that didnt need to be said.

No

 

[Reiser99]

On the point about Wales exploiting England's defense out wide, first you have to think that any professional team aiming to be no.1 will work on that. Secondly you also have to consider the opposition, Italy are well known to rely on their forwards when close to the line, hell sometimes they intentionally create rolling mauls to get over in the middle of the field. England would have planned a narrower defense against them. It caught them out by Italy being more attacking and being willing to take the risk, which was great. Wales will not meet the same tactics.

Honestly I don't think England got out of third gear against Italy and never really felt threatened. They will take Wales far more seriously and plan for their style, especially with the same team. As well I think that while Wales played very well, they won't have the same opportunities as they did against Scotland. It will be interesting to see how it pans out, but at the moment I think last week isn't going to tell you very much.

 

[truthteller]

On the point about Wales exploiting England's defense out wide, first you have to think that any professional team aiming to be no.1 will work on that. Secondly you also have to consider the opposition, Italy are well known to rely on their forwards when close to the line, hell sometimes they intentionally create rolling mauls to get over in the middle of the field. England would have planned a narrower defense against them. It caught them out by Italy being more attacking and being willing to take the risk, which was great. Wales will not meet the same tactics.

Honestly I don't think England got out of third gear against Italy and never really felt threatened. They will take Wales far more seriously and plan for their style, especially with the same team. As well I think that while Wales played very well, they won't have the same opportunities as they did against Scotland. It will be interesting to see how it pans out, but at the moment I think last week isn't going to tell you very much.

See this is where we disagree. The Welsh style has evolved for a while, built largely on the scarlets style. BUT when you face a side with all 15 players offering tireless support runners, creating quick ball and selfless players adept not just in terms of speed and fitness but in handling skills and a fly half with serious talents who can kick just as well off both feet. That is a hard side to stop. Im not saying wales are there yet but when they hit their straps they are dangerous as we saw with them dismantling the irish last year , the south africans and the scots.

 

[bushytop]

See this is where we disagree. The Welsh style has evolved for a while, built largely on the scarlets style. BUT when you face a side with all 15 players offering tireless support runners, creating quick ball and selfless players adept not just in terms of speed and fitness but in handling skills and a fly half with serious talents who can kick just as well off both feet. That is a hard side to stop. Im not saying wales are there yet but when they hit their straps they are dangerous as we saw with them dismantling the irish last year , the south africans and the scots.

I think the most important thing to remember (& im as partial to getting carried away as the next man) is that even if the new boys do turn up and click... this is the current number 2 team in the world and ranking points wise, they are quite aways beyond 3rd, so you would have to assume they'll be able to handle it. The excitement comes from assumptions being worth little to nothing, just ask the Scots.

 

[spartan32]

Read many of the preceding posts and is this really even an argument. England are the better team and have been for some time. We have greater strength in depth, greater consistency, and a much better coach. Hence why we had more Lions on tour. This game is ours to lose, not Wales's to win. We should turn Wales over in Cardif let alone HQ, even with a raft of injuries.

Of course that doesn't mean we won't bugger it right up, and Halfpennys beautiful boot is always a problem if we can't stay the right side of the ref, however if England continue on the path that Lord EJ has set them on it's a forgone conclusion. England Win. Arrogance Unleashed.

 

[spartan32]

On a More technical note England really need to do something about the first up tackles. We always seem to give ground and slightly stand off, which isn't such a problem with Italy but will create opportunities for teams like Wales to build momentum. There's also the psychological boost it gives opposition when they always win in contact. I wouldn't mind so much if there was a player who was then digging away and getting us the ball back but that doesn't seem to happen either. We just seem to give ground a meter or two at a time until a mistake is made or the balls eventually thrown wide. I reallly like to see some big hits go in on Wales early in this encounter. Assert some physical dominance otherwise they'll get their tails up and start thinking hey can win, which is frankly a little cruel.

 

[ncurd]

As much people like to go on about attacking threat let's be honest against top tier sides the only way you get to use your attacking threat is if the forwards can gain parity to build a platform.

And honestly I don't think the Welsh forwards will get that against England. Since Eddie took charge in 24 games weve only allowed the opposition ~30 trys (I may have missed a couple). In some games where we've let in more than 2 we've scored more in return. The one game we lost Ireland scored the one try of the match.

That suggest to me you don't beat England by attacking potency as in an open game they have the skill set to beat most opposition at it. You have to win the defensive battle and then hope their damn breaks slightly less than yours.

 

[truthteller]

Read many of the preceding posts and is this really even an argument. England are the better team and have been for some time. We have greater strength in depth, greater consistency, and a much better coach. Hence why we had more Lions on tour. This game is ours to lose, not Wales's to win. We should turn Wales over in Cardif let alone HQ, even with a raft of injuries.

Of course that doesn't mean we won't bugger it right up, and Halfpennys beautiful boot is always a problem if we can't stay the right side of the ref, however if England continue on the path that Lord EJ has set them on it's a forgone conclusion. England Win. Arrogance Unleashed.

in 120 odd years england are only 3 or 4 games ahead, so the vastness of english numerical advantages hasnt really played out. as for the lions england had 19 wales 16, hardly a huge difference. Wales have had 3 grand slams in the last 12 years, england only 1. Id also add a reason wales lost their way in 2014 to 2017 is because they had an
idiot in charge of the WRU who decided to starve regions in order to pay all welsh rugbys debts quicker. it meant a mass exodus of the welsh grand slam team of 2012 and championship winners of 2013 and lions winners 2013. Its only now this is being turned around and welsh stars are staying together in wales. That makes a huge difference in a small nation

 

[truthteller]

As much people like to go on about attacking threat let's be honest against top tier sides the only way you get to use your attacking threat is if the forwards can gain parity to build a platform.

And honestly I don't think the Welsh forwards will get that against England. Since Eddie took charge in 24 games weve only allowed the opposition ~30 trys (I may have missed a couple). In some games where we've let in more than 2 we've scored more in return. The one game we lost Ireland scored the one try of the match.

That suggest to me you don't beat England by attacking potency as in an open game they have the skill set to beat most opposition at it. You have to win the defensive battle and then hope their damn breaks slightly less than yours.

Wales have a quality defence and have beaten england at the breakdown for many games. England have bullied the welsh through the second rows mainly where itoje and launchbury clearly the best second row forwards in the 6 nations. Once england get an edge here and at scrum then they bring in their big back row. But stifle their scrum , turn them over at the breakdown, chop tackle their big boys and everything is on the back foot. This is how wales have won at twickers 3 of the last 6 trips

 

[ncurd]

Wales have a quality defence and have beaten england at the breakdown for many games. England have bullied the welsh through the second rows mainly where itoje and launchbury clearly the best second row forwards in the 6 nations. Once england get an edge here and at scrum then they bring in their big back row. But stifle their scrum , turn them over at the breakdown, chop tackle their big boys and everything is on the back foot. This is how wales have won at twickers 3 of the last 6 trips

Its a nice quote that 3 out the 6 last trips and a great job at silly statistics as well.

Heres mine England have won 5 out of the last 6 matches.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

This is how wales have won at twickers 3 of the last 6 trips

2 of the last 6, you mean?

Whilst the record is pretty even since the sport began if you look at it since professionalism it's England 21 - 9 Wales, so we've definitely pulled away pretty significantly since then.
Wales built up a large chunk of their record from the mid-60s to mid-80s.

 

[ncurd]

2 of the last 6, you mean?

:lol: I didn't even bother to check if he was right.

 

[truthteller]

2 of the last 6, you mean?

Whilst the record is pretty even since the sport began if you look at it since professionalism it's England 21 - 9 Wales, so we've definitely pulled away pretty significantly since then.
Wales built up a large chunk of their record from the mid-60s to mid-80s.

No. 3 of the last 6 games at Twickenham have been won by the welsh. (Excluding 2 friendlies outside world cups and 6 nations). Since 2003 world cup and the inception of welsh regional rugby its just 12- 8 to England. The era where England destroyed Wales was 1990 to 2005. This was a period where wales lost nearly all players to rugby league. Then in 97 it went pro and a few aged league stars came back to Wales. England is vastly richer than Wales and the game going pro suited england more for the first few years. Welsh clubs were bankrupt populations and money too small and too spread out. Cue regional rugby, cue concentration of resources, cue centres of excellence, loads of indoor arenas and brand new stadiums. Now its always competitive thankfully. England only won 1 six nations between rwc 2003 and 2016. The french meanwhile have totally fallen apart due to too mainly overseas players. Saturday will be very competitive could go either way

 

[TRF_Olyy]

England have never lost a game at Twickenham (excluding our losses at Twickenham)

 

[spartan32]

in 120 odd years england are only 3 or 4 games ahead, so the vastness of english numerical advantages hasnt really played out. as for the lions england had 19 wales 16, hardly a huge difference. Wales have had 3 grand slams in the last 12 years, england only 1. Id also add a reason wales lost their way in 2014 to 2017 is because they had an
idiot in charge of the WRU who decided to starve regions in order to pay all welsh rugbys debts quicker. it meant a mass exodus of the welsh grand slam team of 2012 and championship winners of 2013 and lions winners 2013. Its only now this is being turned around and welsh stars are staying together in wales. That makes a huge difference in a small nation

But we aren't talking about the last 120 years, or past grand slams or tournaments. We are talking about this tournament, and this game. And as it stands England are the better side and have home advantage. So we should win unless we underperform. And that's with the likes of Billy V, Youngs, etc missing. The one thing Wales have that we don't is pure passion, especially when they play us. If we had that kind of passion we truly would be unbeatable in this tournament, but for some reason we just don't seem to have it, apart from in the odd player like Maro. A recent exception would be the Australia white wash which was proper blood and guts stuff, but we can't seem to bring that into every game.

In any event I'm really looking forward to this game, and although I may expect England to win, I don't for one minute think it's gonna be easy. In fact, I very much hope it isn't.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

England have never lost a game at Twickenham (excluding our losses at Twickenham)

Are those two games RWC warm ups yeah? I never count RWC warm ups to mean anything to be fair. They're the only friendlies in rugby.

 

[ncurd]

No. 3 of the last 6 games at Twickenham have been won by the welsh. (Excluding 2 friendlies outside world cups and 6 nations)

Nice caveat but there is no such thing a friendly in Test Match Rugby and you have to exclude two England wins to manage it and go back an entire decade to get your third win.

 

[ncurd]

Are those two games RWC warm ups yeah? I never count RWC warm ups to mean anything to be fair. They're the only friendlies in rugby.

A warm up which is fair but also that odd mid year international where both sides were fully stocked.