[Six Nations 2018] Round 2: England vs Wales (10/02/2018)

[bushytop]

No it isn't. 2 6Ns, a grand slam, 3-0 in Oz and undefeated in every Summer/Autumn tour available, 1 loss in 2 years and so on. It's very easy to see how good England are. No were not on NZ level yet, they probably would have beaten us over past 2 years. See you're proving my point about underrating England.

Wales and the vast majority of the Welsh fans are not underrating England, we just know how good they are as they have established a great level of dominance for 2 years... the reason most Welsh fans are talking about Wales more is a) we're Welsh & b) Wales look to be doing things that us as Welsh fans have been crying out for for well over 2 years.

 

[truthteller]

I agree with you. Looking at the resources you've done better then most, while playing well. To be elite you have to win or at least get close to it and stay there.

scarlets have been in every single european cup since it started 20 years ago, theyve made around 8 quarter finals and 2 semi finals. They have amazing pedigree BUT I agree they havent won it so historically theyre not at the top table with the likes of leinster munster leicester toulouse. Though in terms of consistency hardly anyone can beat them.

 

[truthteller]

I agree with you. Looking at the resources you've done better then most, while playing well. To be elite you have to win or at least get close to it and stay there.

scarlets have been in every single european cup since it started 20 years ago, theyve made around 8 quarter finals and 2 semi finals. They have amazing pedigree BUT I agree they havent won it so historically theyre not at the top table with the likes of leinster munster leicester toulouse. Though in terms of consistency hardly anyone can beat them.

No it isn't. 2 6Ns, a grand slam, 3-0 in Oz and undefeated in every Summer/Autumn tour available, 1 loss in 2 years and so on. It's very easy to see how good England are. No were not on NZ level yet, they probably would have beaten us over past 2 years. See you're proving my point about underrating England.

yeah after being knocked out of their own world cup in the group stages...all sides are in transition now , world rugby sides have never been weaker. England won a slam where the french and scots were a joke, wales in transition and the irosh the only major challenge. last year they lost to ireland and wales smashed ireland. This is NOt a foregone conclusion. I also think this welsh side has more potential to get better I do not feel the same way about the england team.

 

[Groundhog]

I will not cease from mental fight;
Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand
Till we have built jerusalem
In england's green and pleasant land.

 

[bushytop]

Yup their great... but while we're extending it to Champions Cup I'll extend it to the Pro12 play offs against Munster and Leinster last year. They are the current champions and have continued to perform during that difficult second season... I'll stand by my position. Now who teams would 'rather' play, that's a crucially a different thing.

Another example would be that I would currently call Exeter the top Avila team right now. Yes Saracens are the better team over a three year period but Exeter are the champs and top of the table.

 

[ThebigARena]

I agree with you. Looking at the resources you've done better then most, while playing well. To be elite you have to win or at least get close to it and stay there.

I think that's subjective different clubs win the league not many barring the French teams dominate in Europe and that's only down to the money they have whereas scarlets have had to scrape for everything and now they are deservedly At elite level now

 

[truthteller]

Theres only 1 english team through in europe, considering the number of clubs , players and welath in english rugby, thats not a sign of massive quality in the english clubs

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Another example would be that I would currently call Exeter the top Avila team right now. Yes Saracens are the better team over a three year period but Exeter are the champs and top of the table.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017–...ns_Cup#Ranking_of_pool_leaders_and_runners-up

Every team in Leinster's pool is currently top of their domestic league too. Both have 11 wins in the Pro 14 with the Scarlets ahead on losing bonus points, and the Pro 14 log means very little Scarlets were 3rd behind Leinster and Munster last year. 9 months ago Scarlets were better after hitting a rich vein of form when it mattered and Leinster had a pretty miserable finish. In the 2017/18 season they're not better unless you value 2 losing bonus points against Ulster and the Cheetahs over Leinster's vastly superior European performance, bookies have Leinster as favourites for both competitions this year as well which I think says it all. This should be put on hold for two weeks time when its actually slightly relevant though.

As a genuine neutral who wishes both nations the opposite of success this thread has read to me like the Welsh are trying to convince themselves they're "elite" while trying to drag the English side down to a place where they can meet in the middle. I've been in that position before as an Ireland fan when nothing but your gut feeling can really convince you that your side has a chance, NZ in Chicago and Aus in the 2011 RWC were examples of this so there's obvious hope, 2016 v England was another example of it though. I do hope Wales win, its better for Ireland, I just don't see it happening in Twickers.

 

[truthteller]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017–18_European_Rugby_Champions_Cup#Ranking_of_pool_leaders_and_runners-up

Every team in Leinster's pool is currently top of their domestic league too. Both have 11 wins in the Pro 14 with the Scarlets ahead on losing bonus points, and the Pro 14 log means very little Scarlets were 3rd behind Leinster and Munster last year. 9 months ago Scarlets were better after hitting a rich vein of form when it mattered and Leinster had a pretty miserable finish. In the 2017/18 season they're not better unless you value 2 losing bonus points against Ulster and the Cheetahs over Leinster's vastly superior European performance, bookies have Leinster as favourites for both competitions this year as well which I think says it all. This should be put on hold for two weeks time when its actually slightly relevant though.

As a genuine neutral who wishes both nations the opposite of success this thread has read to me like the Welsh are trying to convince themselves they're "elite" while trying to drag the English side down to a place where they can meet in the middle. I've been in that position before as an Ireland fan when nothing but your gut feeling can really convince you that your side has a chance, NZ in Chicago and Aus in the 2011 RWC were examples of this so there's obvious hope, 2016 v England was another example of it though. I do hope Wales win, its better for Ireland, I just don't see it happening in Twickers.

Wales are a better side than Ireland that was proven in the hammering they gave them last year. The Lions damages welsh rugby a lot but now the welsh have developed even depth to cope with that and altered their style to make them more effective too. thats why they beat the boks 3 years running and hammered ireland and scotland. The welsh are always underdogs against england and in 130 odd years the score is around 64-60 lol we know we can win this

 

[TRF_Olyy]

beating The champions Toulon

Little bit out of date there

 

[Reiser99]

Theres only 1 english team through in europe, considering the number of clubs , players and welath in english rugby, thats not a sign of massive quality in the english clubs

On this I would argue a part of it is that our best players are more spread out. As Welsh fans have highlighted Wales have quite a few combinations from the Scarlets, Scotland have been heavily based around Glasgow, Ireland a bit less, but still based around more club combinations than England. That doesn't change the fact that it is still very disappointing only getting one team through by the skin of their teeth. The reality is that while there are some very good players, English clubs do have some average players to fill squads and it is reflected in Europe. The advantage is we have more depth overall though for England, where as for example Wales are reliant on those few clubs to produce everyone. However for Europe it does help have international players playing together for the same team.

There is the issue of English clubs over playing their best players as well.

 

[bushytop]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017–18_European_Rugby_Champions_Cup#Ranking_of_pool_leaders_and_runners-up

Every team in Leinster's pool is currently top of their domestic league too. Both have 11 wins in the Pro 14 with the Scarlets ahead on losing bonus points, and the Pro 14 log means very little Scarlets were 3rd behind Leinster and Munster last year. 9 months ago Scarlets were better after hitting a rich vein of form when it mattered and Leinster had a pretty miserable finish. In the 2017/18 season they're not better unless you value 2 losing bonus points against Ulster and the Cheetahs over Leinster's vastly superior European performance, bookies have Leinster as favourites for both competitions this year as well which I think says it all. This should be put on hold for two weeks time when its actually slightly relevant though.

As a genuine neutral who wishes both nations the opposite of success this thread has read to me like the Welsh are trying to convince themselves they're "elite" while trying to drag the English side down to a place where they can meet in the middle. I've been in that position before as an Ireland fan when nothing but your gut feeling can really convince you that your side has a chance, NZ in Chicago and Aus in the 2011 RWC were examples of this so there's obvious hope, 2016 v England was another example of it though. I do hope Wales win, its better for Ireland, I just don't see it happening in Twickers.

And you are free to read it in what ever way you like... personally on the elite front, no I don't think Wales are quite an elite nation at the moment. I would say that NZ, Eng and probably Ireland would be the only teams to fall into that category right now. What I do think though, is if Wales can mount a 'decent' 6 nations challenge this year with the amount of senior players out injured (& decent would probably be around finishing 3rd with a win away). Next year with our established players back and a 'decent' 6N under the belt of the new boys... then we could look to establish ourselves as an elite side.

 

[Reiser99]

Wales are a better side than Ireland that was proven in the hammering they gave them last year. The Lions damages welsh rugby a lot but now the welsh have developed even depth to cope with that and altered their style to make them more effective too. thats why they beat the boks 3 years running and hammered ireland and scotland. The welsh are always underdogs against england and in 130 odd years the score is around 64-60 lol we know we can win this

I think this is the problem here. You are basing your opinion that Wales are better than Ireland because of one game, yet say that Wales can win tomorrow because it is just one game and one game doesn't always reflect current standings. You can't have it both ways. Either rankings are decided on single games or you accept it is about overall form and that while Wales played well to beat Ireland last year, Ireland are in fact better than Wales at the moment.

 

[bushytop]

I think this is the problem here. You are basing your opinion that Wales are better than Ireland because of one game, yet say that Wales can win tomorrow because it is just one game and one game doesn't always reflect current standings. You can't have it both ways. Either rankings are decided on single games or you accept it is about overall form and that while Wales played well to beat Ireland last year, Ireland are in fact better than Wales at the moment.

ireland are ranked higher and have therefore performed the better out of the two sides regardless of the last games result. I do believe that we were a better side than our results showed in last years championship though. A horror show 2nd half against the Scots, the freak show last ten minutes (or 20) against the French and the most anomalous thing I have ever seen foxy do against the English. We came fifth and the results stand, I just think that if we had that same squad available this time we would have done better. We obviously don't have a lot of those players ATM and because of that we're just jazzed to be going to HQ with any confidence at all.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I like bringing up beating South Africa 3 times in a row but ignoring losing to Australia 13 times in a row.
Ireland beat SA last time they met and beat Australia the last two times they met.
They also broke NZs record breaking (or was it record equalling?) win streak.

I don't think it's a massive insult to Wales to suggest Ireland are a better team at the moment.

 

[NickBD]

yeah after being knocked out of their own world cup in the group stages...all sides are in transition now , world rugby sides have never been weaker. England won a slam where the french and scots were a joke, wales in transition and the irosh the only major challenge. last year they lost to ireland and wales smashed ireland. This is NOt a foregone conclusion. I also think this welsh side has more potential to get better I do not feel the same way about the england team.

Wales fans still hanging on to that, which was over 2 years ago.

We're 18 months away from a world cup I'd be very concerned if you think your team is going through as transition now. You can diminish England's wins and tournament wins all you like if it makes you feel better. Last year we did lose to Ireland but we also won the ***le.

See this is what I mean overreacting. A good 6 month spell for Scarlets and a couple of decent wins against SA/Scotland and all of a sudden you have more potential then England. In what world can you look at both set ups, first teams and thing yeah Wales have way more potential.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Is Amos injured again?

If England had played as stodgily as last year against Italy and this was in Wales I'd be picking Wales as I think they made strides in the last four tests.

But it's in England and they looked sharp in attack against Italy so...

England by 13 (no BP)

 

[The5thOfficial]

Wales fans still hanging on to that, which was over 2 years ago.

We're 18 months away from a world cup I'd be very concerned if you think your team is going through as transition now. You can diminish England's wins and tournament wins all you like if it makes you feel better. Last year we did lose to Ireland but we also won the ***le.

See this is what I mean overreacting. A good 6 month spell for Scarlets and a couple of decent wins against SA/Scotland and all of a sudden you have more potential then England. In what world can you look at both set ups, first teams and thing yeah Wales have way more potential.

Nah like a few wales fans have said here..... England are favs and rightly so. Its just that s*** happens. And on the day... who knows.

 

[NickBD]

Nah like a few wales fans have said here..... England are favs and rightly so. Its just that s*** happens. And on the day... who knows.

Mate I have no problems with this, not all Welsh fans obviously. Wales can beat England if they play well. They've got a very good young team with Scarlets also doing well. They're on the up. They have been impressive.

The potential comment though, Wales have a lot of it but you cannot look at England and think I just can't see it.

 

[truthteller]

Wales fans still hanging on to that, which was over 2 years ago.

We're 18 months away from a world cup I'd be very concerned if you think your team is going through as transition now. You can diminish England's wins and tournament wins all you like if it makes you feel better. Last year we did lose to Ireland but we also won the ***le.

See this is what I mean overreacting. A good 6 month spell for Scarlets and a couple of decent wins against SA/Scotland and all of a sudden you have more potential then England. In what world can you look at both set ups, first teams and thing yeah Wales have way more potential.

its more recent than the 66 world cup lol and you mention that all the time