[Six Nations 2018] Round 2: England vs Wales (10/02/2018)

[ncurd]

What the hell is going on with this silly game of back and forth nit picking?

England V Wales thread?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

A bit late lads but do you really not think that the penalty count could be England's own ill discipline and lack of ability at the breakdown? In their two games they've conceded 19 penalties, 9 against Italy v Ireland's 3, 10 against Wales v an abysmal Scotland's 8. Only France have conceded more penalties so far. If you look at players giving away penalties as well it'd suggest that the backrow and the second row are doing their job legally slowing down the ball and retaining possession, the exception is Itoje who has given away 4 penalties whereas Simmonds and Lawes are the only other "back five" players to have conceded a penalty with one each. The penalties appear to be coming when not enough of the four good breakdown players don't reach the ruck. (I think the lack of a great breakdown player in the backrow and a useful front row do hurt) Backs (and Dan Cole) who are impatient while defending get coaxed into rucks by more intelligent opposition who trap them into a position where they give away a penalty. (Without knowing how many penalties are conceded at the breakdown I can't really defend this it's just my observation based off the last two games and Ireland last year, I didn't really focus on them during Autumn and can't remember last year's games at this stage)

Its a personnel issue in my opinion, they are currently playing with two sixes and a lock in the backrow, that's never going to work against talent filled backrows like Ireland and Wales have and penalty counts like this will happen and I don't think it can be used to determine that England deserved more points. Equally, with England's great territory and possession game I don't think it is a huge concern, they beat Ireland 9-10 in the penalty count last year (a huge amount of penalties for an international) and lost as they were too conservative with and without the ball in red and orange zones, Ireland were similar in their losses against Scotland (3-3) and Wales (4-10) last year where better or equal discipline meant little because we were passive in the red and orange zones, conceding tries and not scoring any of our own. I think that, and Farrell as a second playmaker, is what separates England and Ireland right now, Ireland don't score tries off weaker opposition's defence like England do and did on Saturday and it shows in contrasting results against Wales and Scotland in the last 12 months. (It might be premature to say now with the sample being one for England but both have similar struggles killing the French off and I expect that in Paris too)

 

[ncurd]

For the most part I'd agree with you Alpha Bro except there were quite a few blatant penalties (on both sides) at the breakdown that were ignored. Explains our high penalty count not Wales' shockingly low one.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

All stuff he said

I don't for one second pretend our discipline at the breakdown is good, it's bad and our penalty count is a pretty accurate reflection of that. The main issue is there is no way Wales only had 2 offenses worthy of penalties that game. The 2 that stick in my mind are the ball squirting out the back of an English breakdown where Care couldn't get to the ball (Welsh player on the wrong side) and a second where Care got the ball out but was fighting for 10 seconds or so with a Welsh player again lying on the wrong side. Neither time did we get a penalty and both times it killed our momentum or resulted in a turnover. Both were also in kickable penalty positions. I feel we have a reputation as being poor at the breakdown meaning we are more likely to be penalised there whilst our opposition are less likely to be penalised against us. It's the same as sides that get a reputation for being bad in the scrum. The assumption is we have been beaten by superior breakdown operators.

 

[Thingimubob]

For the most part I'd agree with you Alpha Bro except there were quite a few blatant penalties (on both sides) at the breakdown that were ignored. Explains our high penalty count not Wales' shockingly low one.

As you said, both teams got away with a fair bit at the breakdown, and Garces was infuriatingly inconsistent with what he was pinging. One that really got to me was him seeming to randomly pick and choose when he'd bother pinging players for going off their feet at the ruck, in particular while attacking. I remember him penalizing both sides, and even making a point when he penalised one side saying "you got the same penalty earlier", but then mostly ignoring it for the rest of the match? If you're gonna ping it, then do it ALL the time...

Anyway, penalty count could partly come down to the Welsh backrow being dominated by talented, streetwise "fetcher" style flankers? Navidi learned from one of the great Welsh 7s Martyn Williams, while also playing alongside another current great in Warburton, plus while Singler is predominately a rangy 6, but has played quite a bit as a fetching 7 and done well for club and country in that role, and on top of that you've got Tips coming off the bench. These guys are pretty good at pushing the laws to the limit, and getting away with it anyway!

Just a theory, but I've always thought England have been a bit pants over the year at picking a properly balanced back row, and have had a bad habit of leaving some quality 7's out in favour of essentially two 6s and an 8 or even 3 6s. From what I've seen of Underhill for England, Bath and the Ospreys, I reckon he could be the answer though.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I don't for one second pretend our discipline at the breakdown is good, it's bad and our penalty count is a pretty accurate reflection of that. The main issue is there is no way Wales only had 2 offenses worthy of penalties that game. The 2 that stick in my mind are the ball squirting out the back of an English breakdown where Care couldn't get to the ball (Welsh player on the wrong side) and a second where Care got the ball out but was fighting for 10 seconds or so with a Welsh player again lying on the wrong side. Neither time did we get a penalty and both times it killed our momentum or resulted in a turnover. Both were also in kickable penalty positions. I feel we have a reputation as being poor at the breakdown meaning we are more likely to be penalised there whilst our opposition are less likely to be penalised against us. It's the same as sides that get a reputation for being bad in the scrum. The assumption is we have been beaten by superior breakdown operators.

That's fair, I can't argue without seeing the incidents. (I do remember the ball going through Care's legs and thinking it was bad ball protection but I rarely watch games where I'm a neutral all that intensely and miss things) General consensus appears to be that Garces had a shocker so I'll wind the old neck in! I remember when I used to like Garces as a ref, he's declined like crazy in the past 9 months.

 

[The5thOfficial]

England may have just been as bad but I didn't see it.

LOL - blinded by the light!

 

[dullonien]

From what I've seen of Underhill for England, Bath and the Ospreys, I reckon he could be the answer though.

Personally don't agree here. Always thought that he's a (potentially great) blindside, not an openside. His big strengths are his tackling, and his work rate. Doesn't compete at the breakdown like a fetching 7 does, and doesn't have the ball handling to act as a linking 7.

He's closer to moriarty than Tipuric for example!

On the ref. Missed things both sides. Personally thought that England's midfield lived offside for most the match, but I'd probably have to re-watch to be sure.

 

[ncurd]

Stuff

It might just be me but any time I see a team with 5 or less penalties I'm immediately dubious about the officiating being good.

 

[ThebigARena]

Personally don't agree here. Always thought that he's a (potentially great) blindside, not an openside. His big strengths are his tackling, and his work rate. Doesn't compete at the breakdown like a fetching 7 does, and doesn't have the ball handling to act as a linking 7.

He's closer to moriarty than Tipuric for example!

On the ref. Missed things both sides. Personally thought that England's midfield lived offside for most the match, but I'd probably have to re-watch to be sure.

England play the fringes on the offside rule . They were living offside but never seem to get pinged for it, must be that terrible officiating.

 

[duncanb]

England play the fringes on the offside rule . They were living offside but never seem to get pinged for it, must be that terrible officiating.

Ford pinged for offside although England played the ref on this Wales played ref at breakdown.
Both teams got away with it generally your assistant refs chat to ref re backlines.
Not favoring one or other England sealed off more which is garces go to penalty.
Sure coaches would have told players about this as they know refs as well as opposition.

 

[Maverick1987]

I'm convinced also Jonny may does not ground the ball inbthat first try every angle I've seen does not show the ball grounded he slide over with his elbow underneath he then gets up and throws the ball so by the letter of the law No Try! another one you got away with

There's one of each try there's to prove he definitely grounded the ball on both

 

[Maverick1987]

England play the fringes on the offside rule . They were living offside but never seem to get pinged for it, must be that terrible officiating.

First that was the excuse for NZ winning all the time now it's the excuse for England doing it ! We must be going in the right direction !!! Haha

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

First that was the excuse for NZ winning all the time now it's the excuse for England doing it ! We must be going in the right direction !!! Haha

I thought NZ kept winning because they had a goat of some sort? Maybe that would help us beat the Welsh by more?

 

[Maverick1987]

Joking aside how much do people think the 6 day turn around made a difference ? It seemed to be huge tbh ! Also England were playing in Rome so the travel home would have added to that too

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Joking aside how much do people think the 6 day turn around made a difference ? It seemed to be huge tbh ! Also England were playing in Rome so the travel home would have added to that too

When talking about fitness I think it will make a difference but I think for England it is more than that. We had a shorter turnaround but the players have generally been playing more rugby than their Welsh counterparts on top of that. I don't buy that Wales were fitter than us, having a scrumhalf come on and up the tempo has been key to how England work under Jones and Wigglesworth utterly failed in this regard. He slowed the game right down which made it easier for the Welsh to defend.

 

[RedruthRFC]

Apologies if I'm going over old ground re: the try that wasn't, but I've read most posts in this thread, so hopefully not.

Obviously the super slow motion clip shows the knock on and puts the question mark to bed (as well as showing up a lot of pundits for being prepared to jump to conclusions too quickly), but I'm amazed by the number of people who think that a photograph or a freeze frame demonstrates anything other than what was happening at the instant the photograph was taken (the same goes for freeze frames) and at how cut and dried many people seem to see the successful grounding as. As far as I can see, Anscombe lunges with his hand for a ball in mid-air, which means that either he would have to catch it one handed or remain in contact with the ball until it hits the ground in order to avoid a knock on. The best video I've found:



makes it look like he lost contact with the ball between 30 and 31 seconds. If this was all the was available to the TMO, I can see why there was sufficient doubt in his mind to say no try.

 

[Maverick1987]

When talking about fitness I think it will make a difference but I think for England it is more than that. We had a shorter turnaround but the players have generally been playing more rugby than their Welsh counterparts on top of that. I don't buy that Wales were fitter than us, having a scrumhalf come on and up the tempo has been key to how England work under Jones and Wigglesworth utterly failed in this regard. He slowed the game right down which made it easier for the Welsh to defend.

Yeh I don't buy that they have all of a sudden become fitter either . You are probably right about Wigglesworth . Also maybe Eddie didn't trust Hepburn as much as he would Marler so didn't swap Mako out till 75th minute . He looked off his feet !

 

[McTallshort]

England play the fringes on the offside rule . They were living offside but never seem to get pinged for it, must be that terrible officiating.

You play to the referee. Unlucky

 

[ratsapprentice]

Obviously the super slow motion clip shows the knock on and puts the question mark to bed (as well as showing up a lot of pundits for being prepared to jump to conclusions too quickly), but I'm amazed by the number of people who think that a photograph or a freeze frame demonstrates anything other than what was happening at the instant the photograph was taken (the same goes for freeze frames) and at how cut and dried many people seem to see the successful grounding as.

Most people are quite dull, so it shouldn't be that surprising.