Should the Pumas stay in the RC, for the next seasons. Yes or No? Argue

[Colombia]

So your point that Argentina can't compete with the setup is a weak one, they palpably can and have done in the past nearly beating one of the best All Black sides. Just currently they have lessened players/coaching which despite being weaker than before could well have bar for a choke of a charge down, cheating by Polota-Nau and referees reluctance to award penalty tries have had 2 or 3 wins.

Yeah I don't think it's much to do with set-up. However, I agree with the poster above who said Argentina need to win games, no matter who it's against. Losing consistently is morale-sapping, and damaging, not just for the team but for rugby in the nation.

Supporters won't keep watching a national team that constantly loses and the sport won't grow (or at least growth will be stunted). That's what prompted my (open) question of whether inclusion may be doing more harm than good.

 

[marianodan]

A little joke about a tv ad of the pumas for fellow argentinian users:

 

[Superalexmarket]

JAJAJAJAAAAAAA!!! Buenisimo...!!!

 

[Maverick1987]

It would be daft for them to leave . Look how poor Italy used to be . Now they have every scalp in Europe except for England . Just being able to watch argentina in a major comp is enough . The argies are extremely patriotic .

 

[Pampas]

Yeah I don't think it's much to do with set-up. However, I agree with the poster above who said Argentina need to win games, no matter who it's against. Losing consistently is morale-sapping, and damaging, not just for the team but for rugby in the nation.

Supporters won't keep watching a national team that constantly loses and the sport won't grow (or at least growth will be stunted). That's what prompted my (open) question of whether inclusion may be doing more harm than good.

Even though it is a moral blow to lose so many games, even if it is against the 3 top teams in the world, that alone is not a reason to leave the RC. We have other test windows where we can face weaker teams and grab some wins.
The inclusion in the RC should be the second stage of the growth plan of the rugby in Argentina (the first being the Pladar and the creation of the Pampas), but more things have to be done, like the inclusion of 1/2 team in the SR, and migrate the professional base of players from the North Hemisphere to the SH.

 

[Aspry]

A little joke about a tv ad of the pumas for fellow argentinian users:

Jaja la mejor que yo vi hasta ahora

 

[Colombia]

Even though it is a moral blow to lose so many games, even if it is against the 3 top teams in the world, that alone is not a reason to leave the RC. We have other test windows where we can face weaker teams and grab some wins.

Yeah but the Pumas are forced to put out a B team in June, and play away fixtures in November. It's very difficult for them to pick up wins.

The inclusion in the RC should be the second stage of the growth plan of the rugby in Argentina (the first being the Pladar and the creation of the Pampas), but more things have to be done, like the inclusion of 1/2 team in the SR, and migrate the professional base of players from the North Hemisphere to the SH.

I don't think the finance is there for that, nor does it seem likely in the near future. Do you?

 

[William18]

Of course Argentina should not leave. That would be ridiculous. However, the ascension of Argentina to the elite tier is in no way inevitable. They have huge problems compared to the other three teams in the Rugby Championship. Their players mostly play on the other side of the world in different teams. There are few chances for Argentina to get together and play as a team. I think they will get better but it could be many years before they even win a game. It's a long term project and should be treated as such.

 

[flank for days]

I think that people have to think about the inclusion of Samoa into the Rugby championship. They are currently ranked ahead of Argentina in the IRB rankings and have some very talented player. They have beaten Australia more recently than Argentina and deserve a shot at playing more tier 1 nations on a regular basis. My dream situation if finances were not a problem would be to have a two league competition much like the ITM cup where the team that wins the second division gains promotion to the top division. I propose division 1 to include NZ, SA, Aus, Samoa, and Argentina and div 2 includes Tonga, Fiji, Japan, USA and Canada. this would greatly improve the quality of rugby and also expose lower tier nations to more regular quality opponents.

 

[Jaguares]

I think that people have to think about the inclusion of Samoa into the Rugby championship. They are currently ranked ahead of Argentina in the IRB rankings and have some very talented player. They have beaten Australia more recently than Argentina and deserve a shot at playing more tier 1 nations on a regular basis. My dream situation if finances were not a problem would be to have a two league competition much like the ITM cup where the team that wins the second division gains promotion to the top division. I propose division 1 to include NZ, SA, Aus, Samoa, and Argentina and div 2 includes Tonga, Fiji, Japan, USA and Canada. this would greatly improve the quality of rugby and also expose lower tier nations to more regular quality opponents.

Samoa don't have money, they don't have stadiums like those in Argentina. In La Plata stadium was about 40,000 people, Samoa can't achieve something, they aren't fit for the tournament if they can't contribute.

A little joke about a tv ad of the pumas for fellow argentinian users:

Are you stupid? Fernandez Lobbe is a world class player, an important part of European champion and you insult him because he can't defeat the powers of the south?. He could be playing at any Super Rugby team: Cruzaders, Sharks or Brumbies and people insult him? STUPID!

Those who criticize the Pumas to lose against the best teams around the world, go to watch soccer. They don't understand what is rugby.

 

[smartcooky]

I think that people have to think about the inclusion of Samoa into the Rugby championship. They are currently ranked ahead of Argentina in the IRB rankings and have some very talented player. They have beaten Australia more recently than Argentina and deserve a shot at playing more tier 1 nations on a regular basis. My dream situation if finances were not a problem would be to have a two league competition much like the ITM cup where the team that wins the second division gains promotion to the top division. I propose division 1 to include NZ, SA, Aus, Samoa, and Argentina and div 2 includes Tonga, Fiji, Japan, USA and Canada. this would greatly improve the quality of rugby and also expose lower tier nations to more regular quality opponents.

Its a nice idea, but there is not a chance of Samoa joining The Rugby Championship.

Firstly, performance.
Samoa had one win over a very poor and badly under strength Australian team. However, during the professional era, they have not come within 40 points of the All Blacks (losing by an average score of 68-11), and despite one good result losing only 13-5 to South Africa at the 2011 RWC, their record against the Bokke is not a lot better.

Secondly, the money.
Samoa simply cannot afford to host four matches in Samoa, then travel for four matches around the globe, and I cannot see News Ltd buying into the extra money needed to accommodate this. Samoa only has a population of less than 190,000 and a good deal of them would be classed as living in near third world conditions. There is little if any potential for News Ltd to make back any money they might invest.

Thirdly, the players.
The French and English Clubs only grudgingly release Argentina's players for the Rugby Championship, with the French Clubs actually placing illegal restrictions on their access to their players during the June Internationals and warm up matches. They would throw a real fit if they had to release their Samoan players as well.

Just remember that every time Argentina plays the All Blacks, the Bokke or the Wallabies, they are playing teams that are ranked several ranking places ahead of them. Statistically, they aren't going to win very many of those matches unless they have a stellar year like they did in 2006/07, winning 16 of their 20 matches, including victories over all of the Six Nations teams and finishing third in the World Cup, and climbing to third in the world rankings as well, ahead of England, Australia and France.

IMO, SANZAR missed the boat with Argentina in 2007. They should have included them from 2008, not spent another four years sitting on their hands over the issue. By 2012, it was too late.

So, how can Argentina improve? Well, for starters, they MUST somehow be included in Super Rugby. It is essential for them to have a minimum of two franchises and to have a few other players scattered through the franchises of the other three countries. Playing in Super Rugby will harden them to the type of rugby they need to be playing week-in and week-out in order to do well in the Rugby Championship. Playing in Europe simply doesn't do that. Anyone who does not believe this, tell me how many players have come back from playing a couple of seasons in Europe, made it back in the All Blacks or Springboks or Wallabies, and excelled. Compare that with the number of players who have come back and failed.

 

[Pampas]

Its a nice idea, but there is not a chance of Samoa joining The Rugby Championship.

Firstly, performance.
Samoa had one win over a very poor and badly under strength Australian team. However, during the professional era, they have not come within 40 points of the All Blacks (losing by an average score of 68-11), and despite one good result losing only 13-5 to South Africa at the 2011 RWC, their record against the Bokke is not a lot better.

Secondly, the money.
Samoa simply cannot afford to host four matches in Samoa, then travel for four matches around the globe, and I cannot see News Ltd buying into the extra money needed to accommodate this. Samoa only has a population of less than 190,000 and a good deal of them would be classed as living in near third world conditions. There is little if any potential for News Ltd to make back any money they might invest.

Thirdly, the players.
The French and English Clubs only grudgingly release Argentina's players for the Rugby Championship, with the French Clubs actually placing illegal restrictions on their access to their players during the June Internationals and warm up matches. They would throw a real fit if they had to release their Samoan players as well.

Just remember that every time Argentina plays the All Blacks, the Bokke or the Wallabies, they are playing teams that are ranked several ranking places ahead of them. Statistically, they aren't going to win very many of those matches unless they have a stellar year like they did in 2006/07, winning 16 of their 20 matches, including victories over all of the Six Nations teams and finishing third in the World Cup, and climbing to third in the world rankings as well, ahead of England, Australia and France.

IMO, SANZAR missed the boat with Argentina in 2007. They should have included them from 2008, not spent another four years sitting on their hands over the issue. By 2012, it was too late.

So, how can Argentina improve? Well, for starters, they MUST somehow be included in Super Rugby. It is essential for them to have a minimum of two franchises and to have a few other players scattered through the franchises of the other three countries. Playing in Super Rugby will harden them to the type of rugby they need to be playing week-in and week-out in order to do well in the Rugby Championship. Playing in Europe simply doesn't do that. Anyone who does not believe this, tell me how many players have come back from playing a couple of seasons in Europe, made it back in the All Blacks or Springboks or Wallabies, and excelled. Compare that with the number of players who have come back and failed.

nice read, i agree on every point.

 

[rgman]

Those who criticize the Pumas to lose against the best teams around the world, go to watch soccer. They don't understand what is rugby.[/QUOTE]

We don't criticize Pumas, we love them... but we know France 2007 performance was the beginning ... Pumas can beat at least the wallabies, something is wrong here....

 

[psychic duck]

Its a nice idea, but there is not a chance of Samoa joining The Rugby Championship.

Firstly, performance.
Samoa had one win over a very poor and badly under strength Australian team. However, during the professional era, they have not come within 40 points of the All Blacks (losing by an average score of 68-11), and despite one good result losing only 13-5 to South Africa at the 2011 RWC, their record against the Bokke is not a lot better.

Secondly, the money.
Samoa simply cannot afford to host four matches in Samoa, then travel for four matches around the globe, and I cannot see News Ltd buying into the extra money needed to accommodate this. Samoa only has a population of less than 190,000 and a good deal of them would be classed as living in near third world conditions. There is little if any potential for News Ltd to make back any money they might invest.

Thirdly, the players.
The French and English Clubs only grudgingly release Argentina's players for the Rugby Championship, with the French Clubs actually placing illegal restrictions on their access to their players during the June Internationals and warm up matches. They would throw a real fit if they had to release their Samoan players as well.

Just remember that every time Argentina plays the All Blacks, the Bokke or the Wallabies, they are playing teams that are ranked several ranking places ahead of them. Statistically, they aren't going to win very many of those matches unless they have a stellar year like they did in 2006/07, winning 16 of their 20 matches, including victories over all of the Six Nations teams and finishing third in the World Cup, and climbing to third in the world rankings as well, ahead of England, Australia and France.

IMO, SANZAR missed the boat with Argentina in 2007. They should have included them from 2008, not spent another four years sitting on their hands over the issue. By 2012, it was too late.

So, how can Argentina improve? Well, for starters, they MUST somehow be included in Super Rugby. It is essential for them to have a minimum of two franchises and to have a few other players scattered through the franchises of the other three countries. Playing in Super Rugby will harden them to the type of rugby they need to be playing week-in and week-out in order to do well in the Rugby Championship. Playing in Europe simply doesn't do that. Anyone who does not believe this, tell me how many players have come back from playing a couple of seasons in Europe, made it back in the All Blacks or Springboks or Wallabies, and excelled. Compare that with the number of players who have come back and failed.

The stats you are citing on Samoa's performance are of little relevance to their current strength of the side. The last match they played against the All Blacks in 2008 they had a side that was a million miles from even being close to resembling a full side and shipped 100 points.

Also previous results against South Africa such as RWC 2007 for example, don't reflect the increased success they have had from about 2010 onwards of persuading Samoan eligible New Zealanders to play for them and strengthen the side significantly, and also the added factor they are now getting a pretty consistent full side whereas before players were picking and choosing when to play, only turning up at RWC.

Their historical results are meaningless given recent developments to the team, and right now they are a better side than Argentina, and I would actually like to see them given the opportunity to play a proper 2/3 match series with RC side in June or something now they're getting their full side more often. Samoa vs Australia or Argentina would be a good interesting match. And by the way that Aussie side they beat was not as understrength as you are making out, in fact it was little different to some of the injury laden sides they have put out in recent times that the likes of Argentina and Wales have consistently failed to beat.

Another point I'd like to make, is technically that June situation for the Pumas is mutually agreed between the clubs and the UAR. The PR line that is spun it's to do with "rest and player welfare" with the extra RC workload. Which personally I think is BS, and hopefully the abomination the Pumas June matches have become is rectified soon.

 

[smartcooky]

The stats you are citing on Samoa's performance are of little relevance to their current strength of the side.

That is true, but I was merely addressing the point made by flank for days

...They are currently ranked ahead of Argentina in the IRB rankings and have some very talented player. They have beaten Australia more recently than Argentina....

Another point I'd like to make, is technically that June situation for the Pumas is mutually agreed between the clubs and the UAR. The PR line that is spun it's to do with "rest and player welfare" with the extra RC workload. Which personally I think is BS, and hopefully the abomination the Pumas June matches have become is rectified soon.

Mutually agreed between the clubs and the UAR it may well be, but it is still a clear breach of iRB Regulation 9

[TEXTAREA]9.3 No Union, Association, Rugby Body or Club whether by contract, conduct or otherwise may inhibit, prevent, discourage, disincentivise or render unavailable any Player from selection, attendance and appearance in a National Representative Team or National Squad session when such request for selection, attendance and appearance is made in accordance with the provisions of this Regulation 9. Any agreement and/or arrangement between a Player and a Rugby Body or Club or between a Union or an Association and a Rugby Body or Club (and/or any proposal made and/or attempted to be made howsoever communicated) which is contrary to this Regulation 9.3 is prohibited, including, but not limited to any agreement and/or arrangement and/or proposal pursuant to which a Player is (or would be) unable to exercise the right to play for a Union.

9.4 Subject to Regulation 9.18, no Union, Association, Rugby Body or Club may require any payment or other benefit from or impose conditions relating to a Player's participation in a National Representative Team and/or attendance at a National Squad session of his Union when such participation and/or attendance has been requested in accordance with the provisions of this Regulation 9.

9.7 Global Release Periods
(a) The June window
The Right to Release for Matches shall apply to each of the senior National Representative Team, the next senior National Representative Team and the Under 20 National Representative Team of a Union in respect of all International Matches, International Tours and International Tournaments played over a period of three weekends in June each year, save in a Rugby World Cup year, during which year the June window shall not operate in respect of Unions that qualified for the Rugby World Cup. Unless Council approves otherwise the three weekends in June shall be the second, third and fourth weekends.
[/TEXTAREA]

...and before a certain forum member (you know who you are) starts bleating that these regulations are some some or restraint of trade or are in some way illegal or contravene European Law, these are the revised regulations , agreed to in 2012, negotiated between the iRB and the representatives of the English and French Clubs (the LNR and PRL). All three bodies, and the Unions who run the remaining domestic teams and franchises signed up to these regulations.

ETA: BTW, Do not be fooled into thinking that the explanation for this agreement is about player welfare. Its not; its because the French club season runs for so long that it is impossible to fit the required rest periods into the year alongside the release windows for the Rugby Championship. Top 14 teams must address the player rest issue within the time-frame of their own competition in a way that does not impact on the availability of players for test duty in the same way that we do in SANZAR.

 

[Aspry]

Samoa don't have money, they don't have stadiums like those in Argentina. In La Plata stadium was about 40,000 people, Samoa can't achieve something, they aren't fit for the tournament if they can't contribute.



Are you stupid? Fernandez Lobbe is a world class player, an important part of European champion and you insult him because he can't defeat the powers of the south?. He could be playing at any Super Rugby team: Cruzaders, Sharks or Brumbies and people insult him? STUPID!

Those who criticize the Pumas to lose against the best teams around the world, go to watch soccer. They don't understand what is rugby.

Just a little of humor, never hurts anybody.

 

[Colombia]

I think that people have to think about the inclusion of Samoa into the Rugby championship. They are currently ranked ahead of Argentina in the IRB rankings and have some very talented player. They have beaten Australia more recently than Argentina and deserve a shot at playing more tier 1 nations on a regular basis.

I agree, a strong case can be made for Samoa's inclusion.

Samoa had one win over a very poor and badly under strength Australian team. However, during the professional era, they have not come within 40 points of the All Blacks (losing by an average score of 68-11), and despite one good result losing only 13-5 to South Africa at the 2011 RWC, their record against the Bokke is not a lot better.

They've never been at full-strength when they've played New Zealand in recent years - which is actually just once in the last decade. NZ have only played Samoa 5 times in their history according to rugbydata and have never played in Samoa. When one considers NZ only beat a semi-decent Tongan side 41-10 at home, you'd have to imagine Samoa would fare better than that in NZ and better still in Apia.

The stats you are citing on Samoa's performance are of little relevance to their current strength of the side. The last match they played against the All Blacks in 2008 they had a side that was a million miles from even being close to resembling a full side and shipped 100 points.

Also previous results against South Africa such as RWC 2007 for example, don't reflect the increased success they have had from about 2010 onwards of persuading Samoan eligible New Zealanders to play for them and strengthen the side significantly, and also the added factor they are now getting a pretty consistent full side whereas before players were picking and choosing when to play, only turning up at RWC.

Their historical results are meaningless given recent developments to the team, and right now they are a better side than Argentina, and I would actually like to see them given the opportunity to play a proper 2/3 match series with RC side in June or something now they're getting their full side more often. Samoa vs Australia or Argentina would be a good interesting match. And by the way that Aussie side they beat was not as understrength as you are making out, in fact it was little different to some of the injury laden sides they have put out in recent times that the likes of Argentina and Wales have consistently failed to beat.

Fully agree with almost all of that, with the exception of Samoa being better than Argentina. I'm not sure which side would win. Surprisingly these teams have only played each other 4 times in history too.

 

[DanCarterite]

When did this rather interesting discussion become about Samoa? In a professional rugby era there is no way that Samoa can be included in the RC, they neither have the stadiums nor the population (with disposable income to pay for the tickets in the non-existent stadium) to make their entry in any way financially viable. There is also a generational matter that is going to hit them relatively soon, in 2007 14 of their WC squad were BORN in NZ, some of these players were 2nd and even 3rd generation New Zealanders I can't find the figures but I believe it was even more in 2011, what this means long term is that the relatively large pool they have been selecting from of the NZ Born/Raised and Rugby Schooled and Super 15 Playing Players is not a never ending resource, eligibility will start to become an issue in the next 30 or so years.

As to the Puma's, well of course they should stay, The "Proof" of whether this competition is good for them won't necessarily be seen in their results against the big 3 Teams in the next couple of years, it will be seen in their other matches, with margins against teams they would generally beat getting larger and wins against teams that were a 'once in a blue moon" deal becoming more common.

I believe someone also suggested expanding the RC to a two tier comp including USA, Canada and Japan as well - to whomever that was I would suggest consulting an atlas.

PS: I will now return to my much more normal Lurking programme.

 

[Prestwick]

Agree, I'm sorry but there is absolutely no way the RC could be termed credible if Argentina were dumped in favour of Samoa. It simply wouldn't work. Where would they play? Where is the stadium capacity? The fans? There is absolutely no commercial value in having a team like Samoa as talented as they are. It is gutting I know but that is the fact of the matter.

To dump Argentina now would be a horrendous decision. Are they playing badly? Yes. Could they play better? Certainly. Does poor form warrant dropping from the SH's premier international competition? If that were the case then it'd just be the All Blacks vs the New Zealand Maori by now!

Look at Italy. Yes, they're still scrapping for the wooden spoon, but Six Nations rugby has raised the profile of the game in Italy to the point where they can now host H-Cup finals and pack the San Siro for their Autumn Internationals. If you had told the President of the FIR that they'd be at this stage by 2013 he would have laughed so hysterically he'd have spilled his espresso all over the table.

Argentina have already delivered packed stadiums and huge viewing figures for their games. They'll get their first scalp and the place will go doo-lally and the TV executives will be in raptures and suddenly the RC will have gone up in value which in turn will boost advertising and TV revenue which in turn will save the shirts of the ARU and co. SANZAR needs Argentina to make the RC relevant.

 

[rgman]

Yes! Phelan quits Txs God. 31 L - 1 D - 13 victories. Go Pumas!