Post tournament thoughts

[Umaga's Witness]

Just a place for anything you want to say relating to the tournament generally, now that it's over.

for me, it was enjoyable. I always like watching different styles compete, and certainly different styles did compete.

I watched all the games, and some were more enjoyable than others. There were some low quality games; I think it's hard to watch these as a neutral, much better if you get behind a team. Most enjoyable games for me:

1. japan v Ireland
2. Japan v Scotland
3. Wales v Fiji
4. Nz v South Africa (maybe it wasn't the best game but I'm a New Zealander)
5. Nz v Ireland (as above)

best performances:

1. springboks v England
2. England v New Zealand
3. Japan v Ireland
4. England v Australia
5. Ireland v Scotland

worst performances:
1. Ireland v New Zealand
2. Fiji v Uruguay

Countries whose fans should feel sad:
1. Argentina. They didn't get given a penalty at the end of the match against France which they could have kicked to win it. Then they played with 14 against England.
2. France. The red in the quarterfinal.
3. Ireland. Because they seriously underperformed.

Biggest upsets:
1. Uruguay v Fiji
2. Japan v Ireland
3. Japan v Scotland

what I'm disappointed about:

1.neither wales nor Ireland making the final. They had potential coming in so there was hope that it wouldn't just be england, South Africa, New Zealand , Australia , or France as per the norm.
2. while Fiji have improved immensely from having full time professionals, being able to compete at set piece, increased discipline and defensive structure, the top teams have also upped their coaching meaning the likes of Fiji haven't really narrowed the gap. And Samoa have gone downhill.
3. Now we have to wait 4 years before we can have proper meaningful games where the fans care about the game itself more than what it means for their chances in the next World Cup.

some stars were born:
Radradra, Fukuoka, curry undies, pollard, horie. I'm going to say itoje because my previous impressions have been that he had been brilliant but gives away a lot of penalties, now his discipline is good too.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

The more things change the more they stay the same...

I don't think we're in a place, or ever have been in the position where teams outside the big 5 with their obvious advantages can truly compete. Wales were the best offering this time around and they didn't have what it takes to win, I think even if they had all their players in the semi SA would have found the extra gear to hold them off. Ireland looked like they could shake things up 12 months ago but dropped away far quicker than any of the top 3 in this tournament would be capable of and regardless South Africa can implement our successful game plan far more effectively than we ever did.

Hopefully next time around two of Ireland, Argentina and Wales can breach the semi final and then final stage but I reckon France will come back and make it all the harder.

 

[bushytop]

...but I reckon France will come back and make it all the harder.

In addition to this, I am struggling to see anything other than a France World Cup win in 2023 right now... the stars just seem to be aligning for them.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

For the NH:
Agree that France showed a lot of potential in 2019 in spells and should catch up with Wales and Ireland under new regimes. I'd be pretty sick if I was a Welsh, Irish, English or Scottish fan. The latter three due to gobsmacking underperformance in their biggest matches, the former due to untimely injuries to Anscombe and Liam Williams. I dont think any of the above will have a better opportunity to win a RWC in my lifetime than they had this year (but that doesn't mean that they won't win one).


For the SH:
I can see the appeal of a strong SA to counter the NZ dominance, and hopefully that spills over into Super Rugby. Pretty humongous questionmarks over the Pumas and Wallabies in the medium term and whether they will regain parity with the likes of Wales and Ireland in the next RWC cycle.


For the game overall:
I thought there was a good ratio of good games to bad ones, and I liked the extreme tactical variations from say the Eng vs Aus QF all the way through to the Wales vs SA semi. I think World Rugby are getting the balance right in countering the defensive dominance we have seen quite a bit of in recent years. If a team has a bad day their defence is going to be punished. Tries from open play are increasingly the critical factor in whether a team wins or loses, but the set piece is still hugely important. Thats a great balance to strike. Plus players are being physically protected to reduce the chances of their lives being ruined when they retire, so I actually give World Rugby a lot of credit despite the unfortunate issues with the typhoon and week 1 refereeing.

I like that a nation with home grown players and a home grown coaching staff lifted the ***le and hope that that becomes the formula for success.


For Tier2:
Improved fitness and defence, yes, but the gulf is still pretty darn big. Japan had everything going for them and did extremely well, but they didnt do as well as the Pumas when they were Tier2 in RWCs that they were playing in away from home. The US did not perform despite their professional leagues in much of the last RWC cycle. Many of the Tier2 sides are from small and/or poor countries that will particularly struggle to develop.

We were fortunate to have so many legitimate contenders for the ***le due to the lack of a dominant challenger. But we were still realistically talking about six or seven legitimate challengers at best. I think more likely than not, we will not have a new legitimate challenger by 2027 or even 2031, unless there are fundamental changes in the international structure of the game. It would be extremely easy for Japan to regress to the level of Fiji, Georgia and the US very quickly. Tier2 is still heavily reliant on middling / failed Tier1 coaching staff and the lack of top domestic coaching talent is a huge issue with no simple solution.

Overall, I give the RWC a hearty 7/10

 

[ThebigARena]

Japan to their credit put on an excellent show .
Great to see sold out stadia and the japanese folk really got behind every nation.
Positives >
The team that deserved to win (won)
The japanese rugby team just a joy to watch
The coverage has been pretty decent throughout.

Negatives.
More personal than anything but the time difference for us in the UK and early morning games ( it didn't feel quite right cracking open a can at 7.30 am)
The two unplayed games England v France and NZ v Italy, It was a shame we never got to see these games but what can you do about the weather!
Personally would of liked a all NH final.
No 4k
and love island ads

 

[TRF_heineken]

I'm rather sad that it's all over now to be honest. This tournament kept me glued to the screen, a lot more than I thought. I kept on watching videos on my phone and tv about things happening off the field, press conferences, presenters in Japan talking, the pundits on various rugby shows. Even watched James Haskell a couple of times talking a lot without saying much.

The media knew how to keep my invested in this tournament. And I certainly loved every single moment of it.

For me, this was a great tournament, and Japan did it with grace and honour.

I give this tournament a 9/10.

 

[TheOvalBall]

I'm really sad the World Cup is over, but it's been a joy. I want to coach in the future (it's been a massive dream of mine), and i've learnt so much from this world cup.
I'm already looking forward to France 2023.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Japan was an inspired choice. The only downside was the typhoon, absolutely terrible on a human level, but a known risk to the tournament. Because we English are sporting we chose to make the asterisk question irrelevant by not turning up in the final.

On the pitch it was the most open tournament in ages, if ever, with some real highlights - Japan v various Celts and Eng v ABs. The Boks delivered a master class of tournament rugby in the final.

From an English perspective we exceeded expectations, but I'm still very disappointed mainly because known chickens came home to roost.....scrummaging, 9, 15. The mental frailty that had haunted us over the last couple of years also came back in the final. Apart from the flankers this was a squad around its peak, by 2023 11 of the starting XV and the whole bench from the final will be 30+, so there will need to be a careful balance between new blood and experience. Can be more evolution than revolution but the process needs to start soon.

But very well done to Japan and the Boks. Some lasting memories.

 

[Canadian_Rugger]

For the NH:
Agree that France showed a lot of potential in 2019 in spells and should catch up with Wales and Ireland under new regimes. I'd be pretty sick if I was a Welsh, Irish, English or Scottish fan. The latter three due to gobsmacking underperformance in their biggest matches, the former due to untimely injuries to Anscombe and Liam Williams. I dont think any of the above will have a better opportunity to win a RWC in my lifetime than they had this year (but that doesn't mean that they won't win one).


For the SH:
I can see the appeal of a strong SA to counter the NZ dominance, and hopefully that spills over into Super Rugby. Pretty humongous questionmarks over the Pumas and Wallabies in the medium term and whether they will regain parity with the likes of Wales and Ireland in the next RWC cycle.


For the game overall:
I thought there was a good ratio of good games to bad ones, and I liked the extreme tactical variations from say the Eng vs Aus QF all the way through to the Wales vs SA semi. I think World Rugby are getting the balance right in countering the defensive dominance we have seen quite a bit of in recent years. If a team has a bad day their defence is going to be punished. Tries from open play are increasingly the critical factor in whether a team wins or loses, but the set piece is still hugely important. Thats a great balance to strike. Plus players are being physically protected to reduce the chances of their lives being ruined when they retire, so I actually give World Rugby a lot of credit despite the unfortunate issues with the typhoon and week 1 refereeing.

I like that a nation with home grown players and a home grown coaching staff lifted the ***le and hope that that becomes the formula for success.


For Tier2:
Improved fitness and defence, yes, but the gulf is still pretty darn big. Japan had everything going for them and did extremely well, but they didnt do as well as the Pumas when they were Tier2 in RWCs that they were playing in away from home. The US did not perform despite their professional leagues in much of the last RWC cycle. Many of the Tier2 sides are from small and/or poor countries that will particularly struggle to develop.

We were fortunate to have so many legitimate contenders for the ***le due to the lack of a dominant challenger. But we were still realistically talking about six or seven legitimate challengers at best. I think more likely than not, we will not have a new legitimate challenger by 2027 or even 2031, unless there are fundamental changes in the international structure of the game. It would be extremely easy for Japan to regress to the level of Fiji, Georgia and the US very quickly. Tier2 is still heavily reliant on middling / failed Tier1 coaching staff and the lack of top domestic coaching talent is a huge issue with no simple solution.

Overall, I give the RWC a hearty 7/10

For Tier 2:

I thought Georgia seriously underperformed. Thankfully, Milton Haig isn't continuing as coach as I think he has taken them as far as they can go. They have a young squad and will be better next cycle, they are still top dogs in the REC so they aren't going anywhere.

USA definitely underperformed but I think it is going to take a couple of cycles for MLR to begin to pay dividends. They will continue to get better over the next few years.

The Pacific Isles did about as well as I expected. Samoa doing poorly wasn't a surprise as they have been trending downward for a while. Tonga can still give anyone a game when they are on as can Fiji.

Biggest impressor as far as Second Tier is concerned has been Uruguay. They have established some real synergy with UAR and also having a contract with MLR. They will continue to get better as will the rest of South America. Brazil is also improving and this will probably be the last RWC we see my own country at unless serious changes happen with the game here.

Namibia were Namibia and, I have a strong feeling they would have beat us had the game gone ahead. It's too bad Romania and Spain were DQ'ed due to a player eligibility issue. Both sides would have offered far more than either Canada or Russia.

For Tier 1:

The Celtic Countries all underperformed but it wasn't unexpected for me. Ireland and Wales are both overrated and don't have the ability to seriously challenge the big 5. They are good but they lack the extra gear that SA, NZ, Eng, Fra and Aus seem to possess. Scotland are going to continue to slide and they are about as good as they are going to get.

Argentina also seriously underperformed. The loss to France really took the wind out of their sails. I have been saying this since they centralized but I don't think PlanDAR has been all that great for the Pumas at international level. They have one pro side and no depth to choose from like when they had 80+ players playing in England and France. Without UAR politics surrounding selection and PlanDAR, Argentina is IMO better than all the Celtic Countries.

Italy were not that bad, they had a very tough group having to face SA and NZ and they did everything they possibly could to set themselves up. Italy have some good young players and they will get better.

Japan are Tier 1, there is no question now. Any argument that they aren't is just old fashioned protectionism. They aren't high level Tier 1 though, better than Italy but around the same level as Scotland.

France and England were both unlucky. France will get better, they will probably continue to do rather poorly in the Six Nations just due to the nature of the Top 14 and the LNR/FFR relationship but will show up stronger next RWC. England are on par with NZ and SA and any match between the three is pretty hard to predict the outcome.

 

[Zerobound]

Scotland are going to continue to slide and they are about as good as they are going to get.

This is an interesting point. After 2015 they were looking good. They weren't far off a semi final then and had performed reasonably well after that. They had dominated Australia, currently on top of England in the past couple of years and some good results against the other 6 Nations teams. (No longer battling Italy for the wooden spoon). They've been able to push South Africa and New Zealand. While playing attractive rugby.

Unfortunately they slipped up a couple of times against the USA and Fiji. They were what I'd call momentum breaking games.

Something I do wonder, despite Scotland having a number of players in good form over 2016 and 2017. They had only 3 players in the initial Lions squad. With the only likely test player Hogg getting injured.

How much more did that series benefit the other home nations?

Partaking in the series surely would have created belief in those players. While also giving them experience in closing out those close games. What are people's thoughts? How much of an impact has that Lions tour had for NH rugby?

 

[ncurd]

snip

If you want a better answer look at their home record vs their away record.

 

[FrenchFan]

In addition to this, I am struggling to see anything other than a France World Cup win in 2023 right now... the stars just seem to be aligning for them.

without a head coach with solid test experience? when all other nations have one. I don't think so. Look at the high profile candidates on the market Hansen, Erasmus, Cheika, Joseph etc. Laporte said after the last 6N he was going after one of the top coaches in the world. In the end he landed...Galthié and Ibanez. Both were sacked from their last coaching job in Top 14. Good luck to les Bleus.

 

[FrenchFan]

France and England were both unlucky. France will get better, they will probably continue to do rather poorly in the Six Nations just due to the nature of the Top 14 and the LNR/FFR relationship but will show up stronger next RWC. England are on par with NZ and SA and any match between the three is pretty hard to predict the outcome.

They were lucky IMO. They were in a relatively easy pool (easier than the other 3), won Arg with a roll of the dice (Lopez drop goal), a 3pt squeaky bum win over Tonga and didn't have to face England. It's called riding your luck. Yes we have the players. But everything else is missing.

You can't do poorly in the 6N (as they have since 2010) and expect to win the RWC. It starts with winning the 6 Nations first. I'm not being negative. Just realistic. In the absence of a qualified and seasoned test coach we'll likely get another 4-year cycle of musical chair selection and funny coaching. Galthié is an excellent technician but an experienced test coach with the ability to rally both his staff and the players he ain't.

 

[bushytop]

without a head coach with solid test experience? when all other nations have one. I don't think so. Look at the high profile candidates on the market Hansen, Erasmus, Cheika, Joseph etc. Laporte said after the last 6N he was going after one of the top coaches in the world. In the end he landed...Galthié and Ibanez. Both were sacked from their last coaching job in Top 14. Good luck to les Bleus.

2x under 20 World Cup winning sides, Shaun Edwards, a home World Cup and the 'manner' in which you outplayed Wales. It's looking frikkin good to me!

 

[Al Bangor]

I think the Japanese organizers did a very good job overall with the tournament. So kudos to them! But I wasn't happy with the USA Rugby team's performance. I thought they'd at least beat Tonga. My Eagles dropped four spaces from #13 to #17 after going 0-4. Oh well, I'm confident we'll do better in Olympic 7s.

 

[Saint Matt]

2x under 20 World Cup winning sides, Shaun Edwards, a home World Cup and the 'manner' in which you outplayed Wales. It's looking frikkin good to me!

Be interesting to hear what a Wigan French accent sounds like

 

[Oliver Madden]

I thought overall it was a good world cup. one of the most positive things was the fact that the Japanese people seemed to really embrace the tournament. the atmosphere at all of the games was second to none.
other positive elements were:
1. Japan's performance/style of play.
2. SA's rise under rassie
3. All Blacks dominance punctured (only temporary I'm sure)
4. community spirit In Japan after the typhoon (Canada helping the clean-up etc)

negatives:
1. another Southern Hemisphere winner (not applicable to all on the forum!!)
2. regression of Samoa and Argentina
3. poor showing from Ireland
4. not a lot of memorable knockout games.

best games:
1. Japan/Ireland
2. Japan/Scotland
3. England/NZ

best team:
South Africa because they won but Japan's style of play was simply sublime.

worst team:
Ireland because I actually thought they were going to do something this time but didn't show up... again.
Scotland and Argentina should also be disappointed at how they played. Australia also were mediocre.

front-runners come 2023:
All Blacks, Springboks, France (stacks of young talent and at home), England

 

[FrenchFan]

this thread cracks me up. France 2023 is 4 years down the road and les Bleus are already being talked up! Don't underestimate the FFR's ability to screw things up. They have won nothing in a decade.
They sacked the best club manager after 18 months in the job and appointed Brunel. You don't know what these people are capable of. There's a lot of things in terms of selection and coaching that will have to fall into place at the right time before les Bleus look like a team again.

 

[Yoshimitsu]

********!

I'll do some analysis later but the final was too traumatic. The overall feeling however is stated as above. ********!

On edit: I understand profanity filters but really one of the joys of the English language is the varied swear words we can deploy. The one in this sentence relates to the male genitalia, otherwise known as your balls and not to be confused with young Male cows.........

 

[Leinster Fan]

I'll be completely honest, I didn't enjoy it as much as the last few. That's not to say it wasn't a great tournament, but from a personal standpoint, Ireland were terrible, I didn't get to watch nearly as much as I'd hoped, and overall I never got the buzz I got from it that I got from previous tournaments. It was an enjoyable way to spend the weekend mornings for a few months, but very little more than that for me, if I'm honest I enjoy the average Six Nations much more than I enjoyed that. The fact that it didn't get as much traction in Ireland (both media and in terms of the general public) as a lot of the other ones didn't help either. I even got over this quarter final loss much quicker than the last few.

But that's all purely personal, overall it was a good world cup. Japan were probably the biggest positive, but Uruguay were great as well. NZ not winning makes the sport as a whole look way better. SA is a great story, and Kolisi lifting the world cup was a lovely moment. I thought the quality of rugby wasn't amazing without being particularly poor.

My main disappointment (other than Ireland) was that the knockouts on the whole were fairly one-sided, other than the Wales games (which were far from classics) it was clear who had it won with a fair bit to go in all the games.

Overall a great tournament in terms of growing the sport, the minnows were less bad than they've historically been. Probably not the best world cup ever but a good one nonetheless.