Should the Pumas stay in the RC, for the next seasons. Yes or No? Argue

[TRF Mr Fish]

The Pumas have scored three great break out tries now - winning 25-0 after 30 minutes.

Edit: Just scored another brilliantly taken break out try!

 

[james5000]

Puma's Rugby Championship record currently

Win's 0
Losses 11
Draws 1

Points for: 168 (ave: 14)
Points against: 390 (ave: 32.5)

largest win: 0
largest loss: 60 (73-13)

Most points in match: 19 twice

Fun fact: Did you know in the History of tri/5/6 Nations and The Rugby Championship some 130 years of rugby 13-73 is the largest ever defeat?
Fun Fact no2: Argentina will now have the record for taking the most games to register their first win, Ireland hold the current record of 11 matches Argentina is now at 12 matches and counting, (Technically 13 because they would have to win their next match to register a W)

 

[TRF_heineken]

Puma's Rugby Championship record currently

Win's 0
Losses 11
Draws 1

Points for: 168 (ave: 14)
Points against: 390 (ave: 32.5)

largest win: 0
largest loss: 60 (73-13)

Most points in match: 19 twice

Fun fact: Did you know in the History of tri/5/6 Nations and The Rugby Championship some 130 years of rugby 13-73 is the largest ever defeat?
Fun Fact no2: Argentina will now have the record for taking the most games to register their first win, Ireland hold the current record of 11 matches Argentina is now at 12 matches and counting, (Technically 13 because they would have to win their next match to register a W)

130 years?? really?? I thought it only started last year...

Fun fact my ass!!

 

[Colombia]

Is inclusion in the RC competition actually benefitting Argentina? (open question)

 

[TRF_heineken]

Is inclusion in the RC competition actually benefitting Argentina? (open question)

Yes it is!!

They play 3 teams who all have won the RWC. they are ranked higher than Argentina. To become better, you need to play against better teams. Now Argentina will play the top 2 teams in the World every year and Australia. That's something not even England or France can say...

 

[Colombia]

Yes it is!!

They play 3 teams who all have won the RWC. they are ranked higher than Argentina. To become better, you need to play against better teams. Now Argentina will play the top 2 teams in the World every year and Australia. That's something not even England or France can say...

That's the theory, and I agree that it's a plausible hypothesis, but when can we expect to see some evidence?

 

[Gavin]

That's the theory, and I agree that it's a plausible hypothesis, but when can we expect to see some evidence?

Already seen some evidence. Draw against South Africa, narrow losses in a good few matches.

 

[TRF_heineken]

That's the theory, and I agree that it's a plausible hypothesis, but when can we expect to see some evidence?

is there no evidence??

Drawing against the Boks in Mendoza.
Losing by one point vs Australia in Australia.
Having a larger pool of players available than before.

That to me is evidence that there are already improvement. I think the Argentine fans are seeking the W too early. Patience is a virtue

 

[Sam Owen]

Is inclusion in the RC competition actually benefitting Argentina? (open question)

Yes, for the future of Puma rugby. I think the Pumas owe the tri nations teams big time for their successes in the future. No I'm not Nostradams lol

 

[Wakaloo]

That's the theory, and I agree that it's a plausible hypothesis, but when can we expect to see some evidence?

There already is some evidence, as Heineken and Gavin put it, but it comes at a price, of course.

Right now Argentina is on an unprecedented losing streak, precisely because they're playing the top teams all the time, and when test windows come around, they try to play tough matches (that they could always lose anyway) to keep their form up.

It's true that betterment comes from facing challenges above your current level, but it's also true that it can be demoralizing, and that's a very real problem right now. Argentina is dangerously close to fall off top-10, as a general measure of current form.

At this point, i'd organize a couple matches with teams at Pumas' level, that you can have a reasonable expectation of a win and a good battle, like Samoa, Tonga or Scotland. Morale, I think, will be particularly low after that jarring defeat against Australia, in the match everyone thought was Pumas' for the taking.

Conflicting opinion here, I know. I love that we play against the best. But we need to score wins and morale-boosting performances too.

 

[Big Ewis]

we need to take a step back and see what's there right now: did we expect Argentina to come ina and actually beat the Top 1 2 3 teams in the world their first or second year ?
It seems like we're implying inclusion alone should guarantee instant results and wins. Like, if you put Japan in the RC they won't just by default win in the next 2 or 3 years because, well, they're Japan and the others have a couple of RWC trophies each. Things don't magically happen.

And it doesn't matter that they lose by 60 in Joburg or get 50 put on them at home in the last match, they are testament to a horrible inconsistency on their part but that's all. France lost against everyone when they first entered the Home Nations, obviously, what did you expect, first ***le 4 years into it and then Grand Slam their 7th year ?
Same for Italy 13 seasons ago in the 5/6N, and again the same for the Argies in TRC.

This isn't like the South American Cup where Argentina send a 4th string team that puts 100 on everyone, every year, for the past 50 years or wtvr. Those other sides have no hope of improving, in fact Uruguay made the RWC once and never looked to return since. Those South American nations don't care about Rugby, don't have the means or capital to really build - while Argentina is a Tier 1 nation that finished 3rd in the RWC some years ago, have a reputation (in the scrum for e.g.) and world class players. They're hungry, and their intentions are real, they're not just hanging in there playing the tournament as a formality.
They are really looking to improve, their fans are complaining...etc..

Not to mention last year's run was an total success, and this year did include a not-too-bad result in NZ, a 1-point loss away in Aussieland, and coming substantially close at home against the no.2 side Boks.

 

[Pampas]

No doubt we should stay, the team improved in some aspects, new faces were brought in since all this revolution started with the Pladar, the Pampas, Jaguares, and the inclusion in RC, and after a century of playing our traditional foward game, the team is looking to play a more open and offensive game.
And even more things should be done, like including 1/2 teams in the Super Rugby, and if ever possible, start migrating all argie players from europe to SH clubs.

 

[james5000]

No doubt we should stay, the team improved in some aspects, new faces were brought in since all this revolution started with the Pladar, the Pampas, Jaguares, and the inclusion in RC, and after a century of playing our traditional foward game, the team is looking to play a more open and offensive game.
And even more things should be done, like including 1/2 teams in the Super Rugby, and if ever possible, start migrating all argie players from europe to SH clubs.

Argentina will improve eventually but i think its integral that they improve their domestic competition and enter super rugby. That would improve their depth drastically. Argentina have some world class players but most of them are ageing. Their second stringers are not up to standard at the moment.

 

[psychic duck]

Why's this thread popped up again? Ridiculous.

 

[james5000]

we need to take a step back and see what's there right now: did we expect Argentina to come ina and actually beat the Top 1 2 3 teams in the world their first or second year ?
It seems like we're implying inclusion alone should guarantee instant results and wins. Like, if you put Japan in the RC they won't just by default win in the next 2 or 3 years because, well, they're Japan and the others have a couple of RWC trophies each. Things don't magically happen.

And it doesn't matter that they lose by 60 in Joburg or get 50 put on them at home in the last match, they are testament to a horrible inconsistency on their part but that's all. France lost against everyone when they first entered the Home Nations, obviously, what did you expect, first ***le 4 years into it and then Grand Slam their 7th year ?
Same for Italy 13 seasons ago in the 5/6N, and again the same for the Argies in TRC.

This isn't like the South American Cup where Argentina send a 4th string team that puts 100 on everyone, every year, for the past 50 years or wtvr. Those other sides have no hope of improving, in fact Uruguay made the RWC once and never looked to return since. Those South American nations don't care about Rugby, don't have the means or capital to really build - while Argentina is a Tier 1 nation that finished 3rd in the RWC some years ago, have a reputation (in the scrum for e.g.) and world class players. They're hungry, and their intentions are real, they're not just hanging in there playing the tournament as a formality.
They are really looking to improve, their fans are complaining...etc..

Not to mention last year's run was an total success, and this year did include a not-too-bad result in NZ, a 1-point loss away in Aussieland, and coming substantially close at home against the no.2 side Boks.

I agree with a bit of what you say I surely didn't expect them to win straight away. I said that they would most likely do worse than Italy have done and I was told that I didn't know anything.

Argentina lack the infrastructure to compete, they need Super Rugby just as much as they need The Rugby Championship I reckon. They will be entrenched at the bottom for awhile yet, they need Super Rugby to take it to the next level.

To be honest I agree Argentina have played as well as can be expected, probably I believe even better than expected. A draw with South Africa and 4 close losses in the first two seasons is really promising. They still need to get that break through win though and I think its unlikely anytime soon. NZ is just too good and SA are looking the goods as well, Aussie are rebuilding under a new coach and I believe they will improve greatly after a strong performance on the EOYT.

Argentina have however had less success than Italy. Italy won a game in their first season. Italy have won 11 out of 70 games, they have won 10 out of 35 home games, Argentina won't do better than that.

 

[Pampas]

i think its integral that they improve their domestic competition

That my friend, is going to be as difficult as winning the RC.
It's going to be very difficult to change the amateur essence of the clubs. Some of the most important clubs of Buenos Aires are absolutely opposed to make rugby a professional sport, because they think they will lose the values of the sport and it will become a business, with clubs run by people who will only think on how to make money instead of being run by "friends".

 

[psychic duck]

I agree with a bit of what you say I surely didn't expect them to win straight away. I said that they would most likely do worse than Italy have done and I was told that I didn't know anything.

Argentina lack the infrastructure to compete, they need Super Rugby just as much as they need The Rugby Championship I reckon. They will be entrenched at the bottom for awhile yet, they need Super Rugby to take it to the next level.

To be honest I agree Argentina have played as well as can be expected, probably I believe even better than expected. A draw with South Africa and 4 close losses in the first two seasons is really promising. They still need to get that break through win though and I think its unlikely anytime soon. NZ is just too good and SA are looking the goods as well, Aussie are rebuilding under a new coach and I believe they will improve greatly after a strong performance on the EOYT.

Argentina have however had less success than Italy. Italy won a game in their first season. Italy have won 11 out of 70 games, they have won 10 out of 35 home games, Argentina won't do better than that.

How then do you explain beating all the 6 Nations sides in a 2 year period 2005-07, reaching 3rd at the RWC, and coming closer to beating the All Blacks than the Europeans in that same period, all achieved without pro domestic teams? Also don't bring Italy into this, even a thick rugby fan can work out they aren't playing the winners of 6 of 7 World Cups in the 6 Nations.

 

[Wakaloo]

How then do you explain beating all the 6 Nations sides in a 2 year period 2005-07, reaching 3rd at the RWC, and coming closer to beating the All Blacks than the Europeans in that same period, all achieved without pro domestic teams? Also don't bring Italy into this, even a thick rugby fan can work out they aren't playing the winners of 6 of 7 World Cups in the 6 Nations.

I agree that the comparison with Italy isn't fair. Argentina has done better, relatively speaking (not in terms of results within their own competition, but they definitely did in terms of relative strength of the opposition).

But as I said before, constantly losing (for a team that has a lot of pride and can beat any of the NH nations in a good day) must be very demoralizing. Argentina will improve by facing the best of the best each year, but they also need games they can win now to keep morale up. That's all I'm saying. Test windows should be used to play against any of the 6 nations sides regularly.

The argument about a domestic competition is indeed a complicated one. We really need UAR to open up and apply for a SR franchise.

 

[james5000]

How then do you explain beating all the 6 Nations sides in a 2 year period 2005-07, reaching 3rd at the RWC, and coming closer to beating the All Blacks than the Europeans in that same period, all achieved without pro domestic teams? Also don't bring Italy into this, even a thick rugby fan can work out they aren't playing the winners of 6 of 7 World Cups in the 6 Nations.

They have all their best players plying their trade in Europe they don't have a strong domestic competition. They need to embrace professionalism, they need to get in to super rugby. They have world class players in Albacete, Fernandez lobbe and Figallo, but overall they just are not good enough to compete week in week out. They lack depth, having a greater number of players playing in a higher level of competition will improve depth.

Munster nearly beat the AB's a couple of years ago they lost 16-18 it can happen it is sport. People need to stop harping on about 07, thats a long time ago. Its not going to help them win a rugby championship game next year. Argentina haven't beaten two of the 3 teams in the Rugby Championship and they haven't beaten the other this millennium. Surely you can concede that it is going to be a mental hurdle they will have to face. These close games will get harder to win if they don't win one soon.

Do you agree it is unlikely Argentina will do as well as Italy have done in terms of results?. That was my argument, it didn't have anything to do with the relative strength of competition (I suppose it does because relatively the Puma's would have to perform much better, but that was part of the point and a reason for me suggesting the comparison). Over the last decade I would put Argentina slightly above Scotland and Scotland haven't done much better than Italy in the same competition.

 

[Big Ewis]

Argentina have however had less success than Italy. Italy won a game in their first season. Italy have won 11 out of 70 games, they have won 10 out of 35 home games, Argentina won't do better than that.

well yeh but Italy don't have as tough opposition. The 6N sides to Italy are easier than the SANZAR nations to Argentina, relatively. I was just talking about the absolute notion of initiation to a tournament.
And the win will come. Close matches are what really mattered in these two years, and they've managed it. Actually winning that match last year against the Boks in stead of a tie doesn't change the form they were on, same this year in Aussieland. But yes, now, the close games are history. They now are at the point where they probably need a win next year. They can't make super close games and losing a routine, like, say, Wales - because that's got a meaning per se: the consistent inability to close out games, and closing out a match is a skill not just a random outcome.