Should the Pumas stay in the RC, for the next seasons. Yes or No? Argue

[Ragey Erasmus]

Argentina should stay but the idea that they are going to be beating the ABs in the next few years is laughable. The ABs have a LOT of good players to choose from. The top Argie team is ok at their best. Take their second team and it's complete ****e. They have no depth, no new amazing talent coming through and a first team that can scrape the odd lucky win here or there but is unable to put in truely convincing performances. The fact that some of Argentina's best performances against misfiring teams has still resulted in a loss for Argentina is very telling.

Do they have a future? Yes. Can they improve? Certainly. However let's be realistic, they will not be going anywhere special in the next 10 years. Best they can hope for is wins over under-strength and/or under-performing SH teams.

 

[psychic duck]

Argentina should stay but the idea that they are going to be beating the ABs in the next few years is laughable. The ABs have a LOT of good players to choose from. The top Argie team is ok at their best. Take their second team and it's complete ****e. They have no depth, no new amazing talent coming through and a first team that can scrape the odd lucky win here or there but is unable to put in truely convincing performances. The fact that some of Argentina's best performances against misfiring teams has still resulted in a loss for Argentina is very telling.

Do they have a future? Yes. Can they improve? Certainly. However let's be realistic, they will not be going anywhere special in the next 10 years. Best they can hope for is wins over under-strength and/or under-performing SH teams.

What is laughable is that you seem to have judged the entire long term health and future of Argentine rugby just based on about 12 months recent form.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Never beating the top teams isn't "12 months of recent form", it's the entire history of the Argie team as a tier 1 nation. Where is the evidence that the Argie team is going to advance much further? Are their youth dominating? Are their backup players capable? Is their first team putting in convincing performances? The answer to all these is no. England had a team knocked together for a very short while with far less caps than the Argie side they faced and thrashed them twice. If you watched the games you would have seen that, without key members the Argie team has ONE attacking option. When not at full strength they are extremely predictable and uncreative. When at full strength they have more options but still rely too heavily on basic forward play. That is ok when you are actually able to outmuscle your opponents but the Argies can't do that against many teams any more and it doesn't look like their newer players can either, given how convincingly their scrum was destroyed by a poor england scrumming team.

 

[psychic duck]

Never beating the top teams isn't "12 months of recent form", it's the entire history of the Argie team as a tier 1 nation. Where is the evidence that the Argie team is going to advance much further? Are their youth dominating? Are their backup players capable? Is their first team putting in convincing performances? The answer to all these is no. England had a team knocked together for a very short while with far less caps than the Argie side they faced and thrashed them twice. If you watched the games you would have seen that, without key members the Argie team has ONE attacking option. When not at full strength they are extremely predictable and uncreative. When at full strength they have more options but still rely too heavily on basic forward play. That is ok when you are actually able to outmuscle your opponents but the Argies can't do that against many teams any more and it doesn't look like their newer players can either, given how convincingly their scrum was destroyed by a poor england scrumming team.

You're right, I was wrong to say you judged the entire long term future of the Pumas on 12 months form. You actually seem to have judged it on 2 matches that had a total of 3 players from the Rugby Championship squad in the starting XV, which has as much relevance to the actual team as Wales losing to Japan. And from reading this I actually doubt that you have seen many other Pumas matches at all of late. And are clearly oblivious to the much improved youth system, and the difference that joining the RC is making and will make in future.

 

[Big Ewis]

I'm gonna have to go with psychic dyke on this one...

while I must admit though: it's a bit unsettling how little Argentina cared about this summer's tests...

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

You're right, I was wrong to say you judged the entire long term future of the Pumas on 12 months form. You actually seem to have judged it on 2 matches that had a total of 3 players from the Rugby Championship squad in the starting XV, which has as much relevance to the actual team as Wales losing to Japan. And from reading this I actually doubt that you have seen many other Pumas matches at all of late. And are clearly oblivious to the much improved youth system, and the difference that joining the RC is making and will make in future.

So do tell me how NEVER beating most of the top teams is "recent poor form". You are quick to dismiss but I notice you still haven't actually said one what basis you think Argentina are really going to improve. Show you their second team is useless you dismiss it. Show they have limited up and coming youth you dismiss it. Dismiss their aging team, dismiss they can't play creatively without said aging players so come on, just what are you basing a supposed improvement on?

 

[Da Grappla]

So do tell me how NEVER beating most of the top teams is "recent poor form". You are quick to dismiss but I notice you still haven't actually said one what basis you think Argentina are really going to improve. Show you their second team is useless you dismiss it. Show they have limited up and coming youth you dismiss it. Dismiss their aging team, dismiss they can't play creatively without said aging players so come on, just what are you basing a supposed improvement on?

Surely on the top level competition they didn't have until now.

Argentina are a team who didn't compete on a yearly basis like ANYBODY ELSE on the Rugby Planet and still managed to get good results in test matches or world cups...results that led them to the RC.

 

[psychic duck]

So do tell me how NEVER beating most of the top teams is "recent poor form". You are quick to dismiss but I notice you still haven't actually said one what basis you think Argentina are really going to improve. Show you their second team is useless you dismiss it. Show they have limited up and coming youth you dismiss it. Dismiss their aging team, dismiss they can't play creatively without said aging players so come on, just what are you basing a supposed improvement on?

You clearly know nothing about Argentine rugby. Have you watched any other Puma matches other than those two? All your opinions seem based on age old Puma stereotypes that ill informed commentators who don't actually watch the matches spout.

Argentina have beaten all of the 6 Nations and Australia and drawn to South Africa and lost by 1 point, and once lost to an injury time last minute try vs New Zealand. So their record isn't really all that different to the likes of Wales or Ireland despite having played less games over time than them. Beating 7 and drawing to 1 is hardly never beaten most of the top teams.

Now onto current matters. Argentina reached the semi finals of the JWC last year for the first time and have beaten Australia twice and South Africa at U20 level these past 2 years. They have clearly made big improvements at this level, hence why two of the top club sides in the world have signed up players from it.

They don't have an ageing team as opposed to any other team. They have more talented attacking players than they have ever had before, and no longer are a side based on a big pack. If you had seen any of their matches last year (which you clearly haven't) you would have clearly seen they didn't draw with South Africa or beat Wales through a big pack.

As for that second team, is has little relevance and Wales would have got beat probably just as easily if they put out an equivalent side against that England team. Yet it would have little relevance to the side that tonked England in the 6 Nations. Those matches would have been more respectable just merely with a 2 or 3 players to boost the front row anyway.

And finally and most importantly, they are now in the Rugby Championship, which has added masses more money into the union, regular fixtures at the highest level of rugby and they are also highly likely to have professional domestic teams within the next few years. And if you can't see why that is long term clear grounds for improvement, then I give up.

 

[Superalexmarket]

Go Psychic, I could not have said it better.

 

[LittleGuy]

Go Psychic, I could not have said it better.

Yeah that was a post of the year candidate.....

Don't we here these same complaints about the Pumas before EVERY single test they play? What do they have to do for people to respect them!!

 

[Big Ewis]

Yeah that was a post of the year candidate.....

Don't we here these same complaints about the Pumas before EVERY single test they play? What do they have to do for people to respect them!!

yeh, I actually repped him...
you're an annoying human being psychic dyke, but you know your *****......plus I'm totally biased because you just told off some English guy about a side I love, the Pumas, so I mean you barely get any truly valuable love from me : p

And yeh, obviously the Pumas are more than just a pack...REALLY hope we can see some more of that sexy Latin back-play again this RC.

 

[psychic duck]

Yeah that was a post of the year candidate.....

Don't we here these same complaints about the Pumas before EVERY single test they play? What do they have to do for people to respect them!!

The especially amusing thing about this particular kneejerk ignorant opinion is that it is based on just two matches from the Argentina second string, whilst the Pumas are making unprecedented revenue from the RC, much improved juniors and just this week news they will likely have fully pro domestic teams in Super Rugby in the next few years. All that yet their entire long term future is written off after not looking good in two matches with their second string ...

I wonder what kneejerk reactions ragerancher was saying when future RWC winners England and future 4 time 6N winners Wales sent out their second string and lost 76-0 and 96-13 to Australia and South Africa respectively?

 

[LittleGuy]

The especially amusing thing about this particular kneejerk ignorant opinion is that it is based on just two matches from the Argentina second string, whilst the Pumas are making unprecedented revenue from the RC, much improved juniors and just this week news they will likely have fully pro domestic teams in Super Rugby in the next few years. All that yet their entire long term future is written off after not looking good in two matches with their second string ...

I wonder what kneejerk reactions ragerancher was saying when future RWC winners England and future 4 time 6N winners Wales sent out their second string and lost 76-0 and 96-13 to Australia and South Africa respectively?

It was the same thing with the warm up matches last year(and the first one this year) where everyone assumed the experimental combinations and new things that were tried in meaningless games would somehow reflect the full tournament performance....I got into it with welshglory last year pre tournament when I stated that Arg would run SA extremely close at home(ended up doing so).

Am I expecting the Pumas to win? Nope, can they pull off a couple of victories though? Yes. Oz and SA in Argentina are defnate pick up oppourtunites. Oz will have played A LOT of tough rugby by the time they play Argentina and I think are very vulnerable. Oddly enough it seems that no one ever doubts Italy anymore but somehow Argentina can't get over that hump. They are also an exception amongst the Tier Ones in that they have no professional domestic competition(which was generally a condition of Tier One status). There was a time where they weren't much better than Canada in the early-mid 90's has everyone forgotten this?

In fact even today more rumours of two Argentine Super Rugby teams.....http://www.espnscrum.com/super-rugby-2013/rugby/story/193559.html

 

[smartcooky]

It was the same thing with the warm up matches last year(and the first one this year) where everyone assumed the experimental combinations and new things that were tried in meaningless games would somehow reflect the full tournament performance....I got into it with welshglory last year pre tournament when I stated that Arg would run SA extremely close at home(ended up doing so).

Am I expecting the Pumas to win? Nope, can they pull off a couple of victories though? Yes. Oz and SA in Argentina are defnate pick up oppourtunites. Oz will have played A LOT of tough rugby by the time they play Argentina and I think are very vulnerable. Oddly enough it seems that no one ever doubts Italy anymore but somehow Argentina can't get over that hump. They are also an exception amongst the Tier Ones in that they have no professional domestic competition(which was generally a condition of Tier One status). There was a time where they weren't much better than Canada in the early-mid 90's has everyone forgotten this?

In fact even today more rumours of two Argentine Super Rugby teams.....http://www.espnscrum.com/super-rugby-2013/rugby/story/193559.html

This is especially poor, considering that Argentina have beaten every 6N team plus Australia. New Zealand and South Africa are the only top teams that they have never beaten, although they have drawn with both, and with the Lions. That is 53 wins over RC/6N teams plus 8 draws in

Italy on the other hand, have never beaten New Zealand, South Africa, Australia or England, have no draws, and have had only 21 wins over RC/6N teams in their history

 

[Big Ewis]

* Argies lost by 4 (away) and then 6 (home) to Australia last year; they were up 6-19 at a point in aussieland.
* They drew at home, in a match they totally should've won against the Boks.
* Kept the AB try-less for 65min in NZ.

They definitely suffered from the old "playing 3/4 of the game" syndrome. Legs get tired after the 65th minute and they blow leads or tight matches to lose ultimately.
This year they're getting their win. At least one.
I'm afraid, as it's been stated before, that specifically on the road they may lose some of that audacity this year. They had very handsome results in Aus and NZ last year; and everybody felt it was all part of that rookie arrogance, like, 'we're not afraid to come into your house and take it'. They were fearless. But this year, will they have that same desperate hunger on the road, and then can they capitalize in the waning moments at home of hard fought battles ?

 

[Superalexmarket]

* Argies lost by 4 (away) and then 6 (home) to Australia last year; they were up 6-19 at a point in aussieland.
* They drew at home, in a match they totally should've won against the Boks.
* Kept the AB try-less for 65min in NZ.

They definitely suffered from the old "playing 3/4 of the game" syndrome. Legs get tired after the 65th minute and they blow leads or tight matches to lose ultimately.
This year they're getting their win. At least one.
I'm afraid, as it's been stated before, that specifically on the road they may lose some of that audacity this year. They had very handsome results in Aus and NZ last year; and everybody felt it was all part of that rookie arrogance, like, 'we're not afraid to come into your house and take it'. They were fearless. But this year, will they have that same desperate hunger on the road, and then can they capitalize in the waning moments at home of hard fought battles ?

The fatal last 20 minutes of the Pumas, I hope this RC they don't get so tired

 

[Canadian_Rugger]

Why in the hell are we even debating this! Of course Argentina should stay in the Rugby Championship. This is the greatest rugby tournament on the planet and Argentina beign part of it only makes it greater. Lets drop the elitist attitudes and try and grow the game of rugby... this is the sort of **** that is holding rugby back from being on par with the sport of football, is the fact it is controlled by a bunch of elitist ******s who run a closed shop! It is why it took until 1995 for the game to actually become professional!

/rant ends

 

[Big Ewis]

The fatal last 20 minutes of the Pumas, I hope this RC they don't get so tired

it was to be expected that first year, last year. Argentina came in against the top 3 nations, nothing short of it, and needed to produce the best rugby they possibly could. The stakes were high, they had to win one. That had to prove they belonged. They managed to punch higher than their weight, but you can only hold for so long, and 80 minutes is a long time.
In time they'll get more and more used to this of course, as any organism usually adapts; they'll know the opponents more and more, understand what it takes to beat those SANZAR giants, and eventually they won't need to use their super turbo all the time and will eventually get the level to be able to stay with those teams more naturally; I'd imagine.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

You clearly know nothing about Argentine rugby. Have you watched any other Puma matches other than those two? All your opinions seem based on age old Puma stereotypes that ill informed commentators who don't actually watch the matches spout.

Argentina have beaten all of the 6 Nations and Australia and drawn to South Africa and lost by 1 point, and once lost to an injury time last minute try vs New Zealand. So their record isn't really all that different to the likes of Wales or Ireland despite having played less games over time than them. Beating 7 and drawing to 1 is hardly never beaten most of the top teams.

Now onto current matters. Argentina reached the semi finals of the JWC last year for the first time and have beaten Australia twice and South Africa at U20 level these past 2 years. They have clearly made big improvements at this level, hence why two of the top club sides in the world have signed up players from it.

They don't have an ageing team as opposed to any other team. They have more talented attacking players than they have ever had before, and no longer are a side based on a big pack. If you had seen any of their matches last year (which you clearly haven't) you would have clearly seen they didn't draw with South Africa or beat Wales through a big pack.

As for that second team, is has little relevance and Wales would have got beat probably just as easily if they put out an equivalent side against that England team. Yet it would have little relevance to the side that tonked England in the 6 Nations. Those matches would have been more respectable just merely with a 2 or 3 players to boost the front row anyway.

And finally and most importantly, they are now in the Rugby Championship, which has added masses more money into the union, regular fixtures at the highest level of rugby and they are also highly likely to have professional domestic teams within the next few years. And if you can't see why that is long term clear grounds for improvement, then I give up.

Well we shall see in 10 years then won't we?

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Argentina playing the Waratahs at the moment - Landajo just scored a great try after some good defence and counter rucking from Argentina gave the halfback a run to the line.