Should the Pumas stay in the RC, for the next seasons. Yes or No? Argue

[TRF_stormer2010]

Agree, I'm sorry but there is absolutely no way the RC could be termed credible if Argentina were dumped in favour of Samoa. It simply wouldn't work. Where would they play? Where is the stadium capacity? The fans? There is absolutely no commercial value in having a team like Samoa as talented as they are. It is gutting I know but that is the fact of the matter.

To dump Argentina now would be a horrendous decision. Are they playing badly? Yes. Could they play better? Certainly. Does poor form warrant dropping from the SH's premier international competition? If that were the case then it'd just be the All Blacks vs the New Zealand Maori by now!

Look at Italy. Yes, they're still scrapping for the wooden spoon, but Six Nations rugby has raised the profile of the game in Italy to the point where they can now host H-Cup finals and pack the San Siro for their Autumn Internationals. If you had told the President of the FIR that they'd be at this stage by 2013 he would have laughed so hysterically he'd have spilled his espresso all over the table.

Argentina have already delivered packed stadiums and huge viewing figures for their games. They'll get their first scalp and the place will go doo-lally and the TV executives will be in raptures and suddenly the RC will have gone up in value which in turn will boost advertising and TV revenue which in turn will save the shirts of the ARU and co. SANZAR needs Argentina to make the RC relevant.

I don't think it does, not relevant (it's the top 3 sides in the world- how can it not be relevant?!) but certainly more feasible and I'd cry a river if they were to leave; simply because playing the same side three times every year is just too damn much and if it stayed at 2 match-ups against each of 2 other nations there'd be too few games to make the broadcaster gods happy.

Yes! Phelan quits Txs God. 31 L - 1 D - 13 victories. Go Pumas!

Happy for you. I hope you get someone more in tune with Arg rugby but that said I do think Phelan is not as much the problem as the current set-up of most of your players (or at least the 'star' players) being based in Europe and spread across numerous teams. Hope that gets sorted out sooner rather than later as well!!

 

[psychic duck]

Happy for you. I hope you get someone more in tune with Arg rugby but that said I do think Phelan is not as much the problem as the current set-up of most of your players (or at least the 'star' players) being based in Europe and spread across numerous teams. Hope that gets sorted out sooner rather than later as well!!

It's the near exact same setup (if actually better) that preceding coaches have achieved much more with. Bull**** excuse.

Samoa have far far worse issues regarding preparation from different clubs and less resources than Argentina as well by the way, yet they achieve more than Phelan has.

 

[Jaguares]

It's the near exact same setup (if actually better) that preceding coaches have achieved much more with. Bull**** excuse.

Samoa have far far worse issues regarding preparation from different clubs and less resources than Argentina as well by the way, yet they achieve more than Phelan has.

Wales would have the same problems than Argentina in the Rugby Championship. You lost all the games against a low-level Australia, ABs beat you easily in Cardiff last year and even lost with Phelan's team in Cardiff.

Cheers

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Wales would have the same problems than Argentina in the Rugby Championship. You lost all the games against a low-level Australia, ABs beat you easily in Cardiff last year and even lost with Phelan's team in Cardiff.

Cheers

Explain to me what relevance this has to the argument?

To be fair to Duck he has a point.

 

[psychic duck]

Wales would have the same problems than Argentina in the Rugby Championship. You lost all the games against a low-level Australia, ABs beat you easily in Cardiff last year and even lost with Phelan's team in Cardiff.

Cheers

 

[Jaguares]

Explain to me what relevance this has to the argument?

To be fair to Duck he has a point.

Any northern hemisphere team would be in trouble if they play the Tri-Nations, then no one can question so hard to The Pumas. Even England and France would have the same problems. France received the wooden spoon in the last 6 Nations. So with that level in the Tri-Nations would be humiliated again and again.

Ireland received 60 points last year in NZ and they could never beat ABs, Wales couldn't beat Wallabies in their last games and Wales was defeated easily by ABs in Cardiff. Scotland and Italy are one level lower still.

England had to wait 10 years to return to beat ABs and France received 60 points playing against Wallabies at home in 2010 and this year they couldn't beat the ABs in 3 straight games and we are talking about two strong countries with big leagues as: Aviva Premiership and Top 14.

I'm not saying anything new, southern hemisphere teams are better than the northern hemisphere.

Cheers

Phelan's team easily beat Wales:

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Any northern hemisphere team would be in trouble if they play the Tri-Nations, then no one can question so hard to The Pumas. Even England and France would have the same problems. France received the wooden spoon in the last 6 Nations. So with that level in the Tri-Nations would be humiliated again and again.

Ireland received 60 points last year in NZ and they could never beat ABs, Wales couldn't beat Wallabies in their last games and Wales was defeated easily by ABs in Cardiff. Scotland and Italy are one level lower still.

England had to wait 10 years to return to beat ABs and France received 60 points playing against Wallabies at home in 2010 and this year they couldn't beat the ABs in 3 straight games and we are talking about two strong countries with big leagues as: Aviva Premiership and Top 14.

I'm not saying anything new, southern hemisphere teams are better than the northern hemisphere.

Cheers




Phelan's team easily beat Wales:

I don't think you still quite get it. Your argument on Wales was only brought in to see if Duck would bite because you saw that he's Welsh.

You know what I'm saying is right. The above still has no real relation to Ducks point!

 

[erwanseb]

The reason of Argentina drop of from is the reduced number of players in Top 14, the full team was French based a few years back playing high level professional rugby weeks in weeks out.

Now that the RC extend until October, clubs are highly reluctant to employ Pumas and only 6 of them (? internationally active, to be verified) still remain in the top 14.

Clubs just can't afford employing a player who will miss 35% of the regular season (9 games played so far in the top 14 out of 26) and arrive exhausted for the remaining 65%. Clubs are obliged to release them but they are not charities and will turn to other countries to find quality fully available players.

Some may argue that it is related to a drop of players quality but I certainly do not believe that, there are very few solutions to avoid a drop of Argentina standards it worked so hard and so long to reach.

1. A common NH/SH season but that is wishful thinking
2. A massive employment of Argentina players in the super XV franchises, unlikely as they are union controlled and give massive preference to their own nationality.
3. A viable professional league in Argentina, unlikely in the near future.

Bottom line, if Argentina cannot self support its professional players base, somebody else has too. As Argentina is now in the RC, this "burden" should fall on the super XV either through new franchises or employment of Pumas in existing ones.

But do not ask the Top 14/PRL clubs to employ players who go missing half the season.

Le Monde:
http://www.lemonde.fr/sport/article/2012/09/15/top-14-l-epine-argentine_1760579_3242.html

 

[TRF_heineken]

The reason of Argentina drop of from is the reduced number of players in Top 14, the full team was French based a few years back playing high level professional rugby weeks in weeks out.

Now that the RC extend until October, clubs are highly reluctant to employ Pumas and only 6 of them (? internationally active, to be verified) still remain in the top 14.

Clubs just can't afford employing a player who will miss 35% of the regular season (9 games played so far in the top 14 out of 26) and arrive exhausted for the remaining 65%. Clubs are obliged to release them but they are not charities and will turn to other countries to find quality fully available players.

Some may argue that it is related to a drop of players quality but I certainly do not believe that, there are very few solutions to avoid a drop of Argentina standards it worked so hard and so long to reach.

1. A common NH/SH season but that is wishful thinking
2. A massive employment of Argentina players in the super XV franchises, unlikely as they are union controlled and give massive preference to their own nationality.
3. A viable professional league in Argentina, unlikely in the near future.

Bottom line, if Argentina cannot self support its professional players base, somebody else has too. As Argentina is now in the RC, this "burden" should fall on the super XV either through new franchises or employment of Pumas in existing ones.

But do not ask the Top 14/PRL clubs to employ players who go missing half the season.

Le Monde:
http://www.lemonde.fr/sport/article/2012/09/15/top-14-l-epine-argentine_1760579_3242.html

How is this argument only applicable to Argentina??

What about South Africa?? Morne Steyn, Bryan Habana, Guthro Steenkamp, Juandre Kruger all went to their french clubs during the Rugby Championship to play for their clubs on the weekend when all the RC teams didn't play, then they all flew back to Australia to rejoin the rest of thebok team...

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

It's the near exact same setup (if actually better) that preceding coaches have achieved much more with. Bull**** excuse.

Samoa have far far worse issues regarding preparation from different clubs and less resources than Argentina as well by the way, yet they achieve more than Phelan has.

You're right of course that's not the only reason. I'm just saying it might to a bit rough to blame it all on the coach and there are other factors even if you call them BS excuses. IE a problem usually has more facets than just 1 simple thing.

 

[Jaguares]

The reason of Argentina drop of from is the reduced number of players in Top 14, the full team was French based a few years back playing high level professional rugby weeks in weeks out.

Now that the RC extend until October, clubs are highly reluctant to employ Pumas and only 6 of them (? internationally active, to be verified) still remain in the top 14.

Clubs just can't afford employing a player who will miss 35% of the regular season (9 games played so far in the top 14 out of 26) and arrive exhausted for the remaining 65%. Clubs are obliged to release them but they are not charities and will turn to other countries to find quality fully available players.

Some may argue that it is related to a drop of players quality but I certainly do not believe that, there are very few solutions to avoid a drop of Argentina standards it worked so hard and so long to reach.

1. A common NH/SH season but that is wishful thinking
2. A massive employment of Argentina players in the super XV franchises, unlikely as they are union controlled and give massive preference to their own nationality.
3. A viable professional league in Argentina, unlikely in the near future.

Bottom line, if Argentina cannot self support its professional players base, somebody else has too. As Argentina is now in the RC, this "burden" should fall on the super XV either through new franchises or employment of Pumas in existing ones.

But do not ask the Top 14/PRL clubs to employ players who go missing half the season.

Le Monde:
http://www.lemonde.fr/sport/article/2012/09/15/top-14-l-epine-argentine_1760579_3242.html

The best answer to this thread. You're right, it's a problem with no short-term solution. Then I don't understand people who criticize so harshly to the Pumas. They just do their best and external factors such as those you mention make it impossible for them to reach the level of the powerful southern hemisphere.

How is this argument only applicable to Argentina??

What about South Africa?? Morne Steyn, Bryan Habana, Guthro Steenkamp, Juandre Kruger all went to their french clubs during the Rugby Championship to play for their clubs on the weekend when all the RC teams didn't play, then they all flew back to Australia to rejoin the rest of thebok team...

South Africa is a Professional Rugby. You have 5 Super Rugby teams and the Currie Cup. It isn't the same situation.

Argentina just have one team in Vodacom Cup and The Jaguares (Argentina A) playing against Canada A, USA A and Uruguay. The UAR depends more of abroad rugby than the SARU.

Cheers

 

[TRF_heineken]

The best answer to this thread. You're right, it's a problem with no short-term solution. Then I don't understand people who criticize so harshly to the Pumas. They just do their best and external factors such as those you mention make it impossible for them to reach the level of the powerful southern hemisphere.



South Africa is a Professional Rugby. You have 5 Super Rugby teams and the Currie Cup. It isn't the same situation.

Argentina just have one team in Vodacom Cup and The Jaguares (Argentina A) playing against Canada A, USA A and Uruguay. The UAR depends more of abroad rugby than the SARU.

Cheers

So??? I was replying to erwanseb and in regards to the situation with Argentinian players playing in France. Just like South Africans are playing in France.

To use an excuse that the french league or teams' way of doing things is to a disadvantage only to Argentina, is not correct as SA players also play there and are directly affected. If anything, the Argentinian Rugby Union should be thankful that so many of their players play in such a good league and getting the exposure.

If it wasn't dor the NH clubs, Argentina would never have been in the position they are now, instead they would have been worse off.

 

[psychic duck]

You're right of course that's not the only reason. I'm just saying it might to a bit rough to blame it all on the coach and there are other factors even if you call them BS excuses. IE a problem usually has more facets than just 1 simple thing.

Nobody say that most players based abroad is ideal, as it clearly isn't. However standards have been set by others with the same system and the side is underperforming. In fact, Phelan has had better preparation than Loffreda had. Previously Argentina would get their players together not long before tests, but now the UAR has an increased budget and the side is a lot more professionally prepared has longer time together before tests and the few who don't have a club in Europe now have a much more professional system back in Argentina.

The reason of Argentina drop of from is the reduced number of players in Top 14, the full team was French based a few years back playing high level professional rugby weeks in weeks out.

Now that the RC extend until October, clubs are highly reluctant to employ Pumas and only 6 of them (? internationally active, to be verified) still remain in the top 14.

Clubs just can't afford employing a player who will miss 35% of the regular season (9 games played so far in the top 14 out of 26) and arrive exhausted for the remaining 65%. Clubs are obliged to release them but they are not charities and will turn to other countries to find quality fully available players.

Some may argue that it is related to a drop of players quality but I certainly do not believe that, there are very few solutions to avoid a drop of Argentina standards it worked so hard and so long to reach.

1. A common NH/SH season but that is wishful thinking
2. A massive employment of Argentina players in the super XV franchises, unlikely as they are union controlled and give massive preference to their own nationality.
3. A viable professional league in Argentina, unlikely in the near future.

Bottom line, if Argentina cannot self support its professional players base, somebody else has too. As Argentina is now in the RC, this "burden" should fall on the super XV either through new franchises or employment of Pumas in existing ones.

But do not ask the Top 14/PRL clubs to employ players who go missing half the season.

Le Monde:
http://www.lemonde.fr/sport/article/2012/09/15/top-14-l-epine-argentine_1760579_3242.html

This argument is flawed based on the fact that the entire first choice Argentine XV apart from the scrum half is still contracted with a professional overseas team. And also the fact that they have been playing badly under Phelan predates the RC. And also the system for elite Argentine based players is far better than it used to be, and really should have helped Phelan. It's not as if every Argentine based player is a bad one anyway, Matera did well in the RC earning a contract with Leicester.

 

[erwanseb]

If it wasn't dor the NH clubs, Argentina would never have been in the position they are now, instead they would have been worse off.

It is exactly what I wrote, Argentina climbing the ladder of International rugby is the direct consequence of player exposure to NH clubs system (and a good national training setup).
The problem is that NH clubs cannot employ them as easily as before because a player selected for Argentina in the RC would miss at least 11-12 games of top 14, half the season.

If you read the article, Berbizier said we cannot afford them (Pumas) anymore, paying full year wages to a player only available 50% of the season is Quote "an economic heresy" unquote.

It is not a question of evil dark force clubs against the Jedi IRB but simple pragmatism, you can't run a business paying full time wages to part time workers.

The problem facing Argentina is the conflicting schedule of NH club season with the RC, the NH job market for their players is consequently shrinking and NH clubs will hire only the proven and the very best but won't take any risk with a promising young player who could be called for Argentina one year later and miss half the following seasons of his contract.

 

[Packman]

I'm glad to see that the consensus is a resounding yes. To be fair I'd not have believed my eyes if it had been any other way.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Nobody say that most players based abroad is ideal, as it clearly isn't. However standards have been set by others with the same system and the side is underperforming. In fact, Phelan has had better preparation than Loffreda had. Previously Argentina would get their players together not long before tests, but now the UAR has an increased budget and the side is a lot more professionally prepared has longer time together before tests and the few who don't have a club in Europe now have a much more professional system back in Argentina.

We aren't arguing, are we? Not too sure but I don't disagree with you. That said I do think there is plenty of other factors to keep in mind, firstly the capability of the players currently in respect to what Arg had and even the current form of then stars (JMH, Contepomi etc), Arg was just a more settled unit with a better quality of player in key positions (relative to the time), then there is the balance of the game having shifted away from teams like Arg and SA who were 5/6 years ago playing rugby that suited what worked at the time; good pack, good defense and a good kicking game while now ball in hand counts for more than then. Then there is the fact that Arg just havn't developed as well as other teams in relation to each other even though they are in a better situation than they were previously off the field.

 

[Jaguares]

The SANZAR says the UAR is a guest and that to become a member of the SANZAR they have to participate in all tournaments of the organization, ie Super Rugby as well.

It's impossible for Argentina to have a team in Super Rugby, so UAR participation is only until 2015.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

i dont think argentina should stay in the championship they haven't won a match yet and its only going to put them down the rankings so for their benefit they should go

 

[Canadian_Rugger]

i dont think argentina should stay in the championship they haven't won a match yet and its only going to put them down the rankings so for their benefit they should go

Troll alert! I think Scotland should be kicked out of the Six Nations, they clearly suck and are on a downward spiral, lets replace them with Georgia or Romania, what do you say!

 

[Toko_11]

If they make Argentina leave RC I will stop watching rugby... that would basically be a big F you to all the emerging nations and will probably mean there is no hope for low tier countries....