SA vs Wales (June 2022 series)

[WaterboySA]

Springbok team:
15 Damian Willemse, 14 Cheslin Kolbe, 13 Lukhanyo Am, 12 Damian de Allende, 11 Makazole Mapimpi, 10 Handre Pollard, 9 Jaden Hendrikse, 8 Jasper Wiese, 7 Pieter-Steph du Toit, 6 Siya Kolisi (captain), 5 Lood de Jager, 4 Eben Etzebeth, 3 Frans Malherbe, 2 Bongi Mbonambi, 1 Trevor Nyakane
Substitutes: 16 Malcolm Marx, 17 Steven Kitshoff, 18 Vincent Koch, 19 Franco Mostert, 20 Kwagga Smith, 21 Elrigh Louw, 22 Faf de Klerk, 23 Willie le Roux

Faf benched????

 

[Welsh Exile]

Springbok team:
15 Damian Willemse, 14 Cheslin Kolbe, 13 Lukhanyo Am, 12 Damian de Allende, 11 Makazole Mapimpi, 10 Handre Pollard, 9 Jaden Hendrikse, 8 Jasper Wiese, 7 Pieter-Steph du Toit, 6 Siya Kolisi (captain), 5 Lood de Jager, 4 Eben Etzebeth, 3 Frans Malherbe, 2 Bongi Mbonambi, 1 Trevor Nyakane
Substitutes: 16 Malcolm Marx, 17 Steven Kitshoff, 18 Vincent Koch, 19 Franco Mostert, 20 Kwagga Smith, 21 Elrigh Louw, 22 Faf de Klerk, 23 Willie le Roux

Faf benched????

To my eyes that's your strongest team except for Faf. I'd start Marx as would the rest of the world but that's your thing. I would say I'm excited, and I kinda am, but the games haven't been the easiest on the eye and I don't see this one being much different.

Edit, I guess Vermeulen at number 8 as well but other than that.

 

[JohnKA]

Springbok team:
15 Damian Willemse, 14 Cheslin Kolbe, 13 Lukhanyo Am, 12 Damian de Allende, 11 Makazole Mapimpi, 10 Handre Pollard, 9 Jaden Hendrikse, 8 Jasper Wiese, 7 Pieter-Steph du Toit, 6 Siya Kolisi (captain), 5 Lood de Jager, 4 Eben Etzebeth, 3 Frans Malherbe, 2 Bongi Mbonambi, 1 Trevor Nyakane
Substitutes: 16 Malcolm Marx, 17 Steven Kitshoff, 18 Vincent Koch, 19 Franco Mostert, 20 Kwagga Smith, 21 Elrigh Louw, 22 Faf de Klerk, 23 Willie le Roux

Faf benched????

Very close too our best team. Long run Jaden will be beter than Faf and he suits the bok gameplan 100%

 

[Eleutherarch]

I appreciate it's not the time for experimentation but I'd consider moving Willemse to 10 and bringing Le Roux in to cover FB.

 

[ChicagoKid]

I appreciate it's not the time for experimentation but I'd consider moving Willemse to 10 and bringing Le Roux in to cover FB.

Willemse is not a good 10. We finally have Damian playing well and settled into a role. Why mess with it? Pollard showed aspects of his 2019 form last Saturday and will only get better with game time. Same with PSTD, Trevor, Cheslin, etc.

We need to be fully firing versus the ABs. This lineup makes sense outside of Ox for Trevor for me. If Jaden or Damian are playing poorly, you bring in Faf and Willie as replacements.

We need the forwards to set a good platform and I hope Bongi is really up for it being his 50 and Eben's 100.

 

[JohnKA]

Willemse is not a 10. A great 12 and decent fullback. Willemse need to settle in a position. Otherwise will be wasted like Frans Steyn. Ruan Pienaar. Patrick Lambie.

I appreciate it's not the time for experimentation but I'd consider moving Willemse to 10 and bringing Le Roux in to cover FB.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Personally I think this would be a great time for some experimentation. Kolbe at hooker and Am in the row would be great. I reckon they could do a job there. Stick Bongi on the wing to replace a Kolbe and jobs a good-un

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Willemse was better at 10 in the past but hasn't had an extended run at 10 in a good long time. I think he is most naturally suited to 12 but can cover 10 and 15 adequately.

Close to our best team on paper but Kolisi, Pollard, Kolbe and PSdT will have to find form soon. Etzebeth had a poor game last hit out. His two soft back-to-back penalties brought Wales back into the game in my eyes and he didn't contribute massively apart from that. Vermeulen unavailable, carrying Kolisi as captain (possibly unfair as other top names are struggling for form as well..) and our thing with Marx like mentioned above put aside this is about as good as we can manage. Before this series I'd have said Gelant in at 15 and Willemse on the bench but TBF Gelant didn't take his chance last week.

Kitshoff and Faf on the bench I can deal with ITO managing player workload and giving opportunity to players like Hendrickse. I really would like an actual openside in there though (Fourie was class the few minutes he had last week but I suppose he won't be a long term option so there is that) in the absence of Vermeulen or failing that Marx starting to help carry the load at breakdown.

 

[Eleutherarch]

Pollard showed aspects of his 2019 form last Saturday and will only get better.

We need to be fully firing versus the ABs.

I'm just going on what I've seen recently. Historical performances are exactly that, and placing too much emphasis on what a person used to be able to do can be a liability. There is absolutely no guarantee that Pollard will improve, and there is no guarantee that if he improves, it will be to the point that he rivals where he was. And a couple of flashes on Saturday did not make me think otherwise. He's not even a super-dependable kicker.

Let me ask you guys: ignoring injury at the moment, who do you think is the most promising candidate to take over at 10 after/during Pollard's reign?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

That's a really strong looking side - imagine the Boks will be looking to make a statement

 

[Eleutherarch]

Willemse was better at 10 in the past but hasn't had an extended run at 10 in a good long time. I think he is most naturally suited to 12 but can cover 10 and 15 adequately.

Close to our best team on paper but Kolisi, Pollard, Kolbe and PSdT will have to find form soon. Etzebeth had a poor game last hit out. His two soft back-to-back penalties brought Wales back into the game in my eyes and he didn't contribute massively apart from that. Vermeulen unavailable, carrying Kolisi as captain (possibly unfair as other top names are struggling for form as well..) and our thing with Marx like mentioned above put aside this is about as good as we can manage. Before this series I'd have said Gelant in at 15 and Willemse on the bench but TBF Gelant didn't take his chance last week.

Kitshoff and Faf on the bench I can deal with ITO managing player workload and giving opportunity to players like Hendrickse. I really would like an actual openside in there though (Fourie was class the few minutes he had last week but I suppose he won't be a long term option so there is that) in the absence of Vermeulen or failing that Marx starting to help carry the load at breakdown.

Eben's earned the right to have a bad game. He's been consistently great to outstanding and is always proactive - two penalties doesn't change that for me. Kolisi was dead weight in the first test and should really be having to justify his place (but that might be contentious politically). Kolbe hasn't really had much to work with. PSDT should come good - I think he'll be markedly improved this week and it was nice to see him flying out of the line and being a good old nuisance. Just needed some refinement.

 

[ChicagoKid]

Willemse was better at 10 in the past but hasn't had an extended run at 10 in a good long time. I think he is most naturally suited to 12 but can cover 10 and 15 adequately.

Close to our best team on paper but Kolisi, Pollard, Kolbe and PSdT will have to find form soon. Etzebeth had a poor game last hit out. His two soft back-to-back penalties brought Wales back into the game in my eyes and he didn't contribute massively apart from that. Vermeulen unavailable, carrying Kolisi as captain (possibly unfair as other top names are struggling for form as well..) and our thing with Marx like mentioned above put aside this is about as good as we can manage. Before this series I'd have said Gelant in at 15 and Willemse on the bench but TBF Gelant didn't take his chance last week.

Kitshoff and Faf on the bench I can deal with ITO managing player workload and giving opportunity to players like Hendrickse. I really would like an actual openside in there though (Fourie was class the few minutes he had last week but I suppose he won't be a long term option so there is that) in the absence of Vermeulen or failing that Marx starting to help carry the load at breakdown.

Couldn't disagree more about Eben. He single handily destroyed their line out and maul. He made a bonehead penalty or two. But the reason Wales got exactly 100 carry meters was because they could not get a platform in the set piece due to Eben.

 

[JohnKA]

I'm just going on what I've seen recently. Historical performances are exactly that, and placing too much emphasis on what a person used to be able to do can be a liability. There is absolutely no guarantee that Pollard will improve, and there is no guarantee that if he improves, it will be to the point that he rivals where he was. And a couple of flashes on Saturday did not make me think otherwise. He's not even a super-dependable kicker.

Let me ask you guys: ignoring injury at the moment, who do you think is the most promising candidate to take over at 10 after/during Pollard's reign?

Jordan Hendrikse

 

[BenniMarco]

One more thing from the 2nd test. After being under the pump for most of the second quarter, Wales secured a penalty at the final scrum of the half just inside our own half. Biggar chose to kick the ball out for half time, but why not chance your arm with the final play of the half and kick for a lineout on or around the Boks 22?

Leinster used to be so good at this at their very best, go for a try before half time knowing amy mistake would likely just result in half time anyway. Such negative captaincy to settle for the 3-3 half time score.

I hate to say it, but I'm praying Biggar isn't fit for this weekend. He cost us a victory in the first test with a poor missed kick at goal + deliberate knock on, and did his best to hand SA victory in the second with his general poor play/kicking. Of course, there's been far more wrong with Wales' play than just Biggar, but he's been generally poor for a while inc. with the Lions and we have a better alternative available in Anscombe who doesn't have any negatives from what I can see given his excellent kicking this season.

Agreed. Been anti biggar for a while. Why kick out for penalty there, baffling.

I really hope Anscombe starts, would be really interesting to see how he performs with a start and how he changes our style.

Re Beard, does anyone else think that he may actually suddenly come very good at some point? Still young, and getting quite the experience. I see him as a pragmatist that over time will improve gradually to a point he is unrecognisable. Controversial probably to say this and maybe wishful thinking as I find him painfully average to watch currently, but it seems like he gets really good recognition from the coaches, and with his age and his responsibilities think he has time to grow.

 

[die_mole]

South Africa was at their best when Willemse was forced into the 10 role after the washed up Jantiles was started. Of course you can have Willemse do a lot of those things starting from the fullback position but then what is Pollard doing out there? Just kicking for sticks? I understand that Pollard is the Boks safety blanket but playing a point grabbing against game doesn't seem too wise to me after the past couple of weeks. Wales lives in negativity, this is what they play for. They are terrified of attacking rugby and the opportunity to win a game 15-12 is what their coaching staff has been planning for years.

 

[ChicagoKid]

South Africa was at their best when Willemse was forced into the 10 role after the washed up Jantiles was started. Of course you can have Willemse do a lot of those things starting from the fullback position but then what is Pollard doing out there? Just kicking for sticks? I understand that Pollard is the Boks safety blanket but playing a point grabbing against game doesn't seem too wise to me after the past couple of weeks. Wales lives in negativity, this is what they play for. They are terrified of attacking rugby and the opportunity to win a game 15-12 is what their coaching staff has been planning for years.

Pollard showed his running ability last week. We desperately missed that last year. People forget he was recovering from his second ACL injury, which is a 12 month or longer recovery from a mental standpoint.

Pollard looked like he trusted his knee unlike last year when he wouldn't attack the gain line except for the second AB test. Pollard will never have flair and so people will get bored of him, but at his best, he is a tactical genius and a steady hand.

I may as well turn this into a Pollard fan account.

 

[die_mole]

Pollard showed his running ability last week. We desperately missed that last year. People forget he was recovering from his second ACL injury, which is a 12 month or longer recovery from a mental standpoint.

Pollard looked like he trusted his knee unlike last year when he wouldn't attack the gain line except for the second AB test. Pollard will never have flair and so people will get bored of him, but at his best, he is a tactical genius and a steady hand.

I may as well turn this into a Pollard fan account.

I just don't think the time to play someone back into form is international test.
He only played 450 minutes in the Top 14 across 12 appearances. Let him go to a club where he actually plays before we declare that he still has his running ability or his tactical genius.

 

[JohnKA]

I just don't think the time to play someone back into form is international test.
He only played 450 minutes in the Top 14 across 12 appearances. Let him go to a club where he actually plays before we declare that he still has his running ability or his tactical genius.

The problem is. Who else ...

 

[unrated]

I'm just going on what I've seen recently. Historical performances are exactly that, and placing too much emphasis on what a person used to be able to do can be a liability. There is absolutely no guarantee that Pollard will improve, and there is no guarantee that if he improves, it will be to the point that he rivals where he was. And a couple of flashes on Saturday did not make me think otherwise. He's not even a super-dependable kicker.

Let me ask you guys: ignoring injury at the moment, who do you think is the most promising candidate to take over at 10 after/during Pollard's reign?

Well thats the probelm isnt it? We dont know... Maybe Goosen. Wish That Stander knee never hit Lambie.

Next world Cup in Australia, I think Jordan Hendrikse might be in contention if he continues to grow.

For now, Pollard is our golden boy, he has been a project player since he was at school. His experience only keeps on growing. I am very happy to have him as our FH in next years World Cup Final. I do inherently trust him even if he used to be a Bulls player. If Goosen can have on full season injury free then I think he can steal that 10 jersey.

 

[Jer1cho]

Marx will never start. I feel so bad for him. He is only known now as 'the replacement front row' or 'the bomb squad'. Sometimes he isn't even on the ratings after a game. He started one game since NZ 2019 WC, against Arg last year, and won MOTM. Others like that old wives tale of 'Marx line out throws' when he had a 100% record all year last year. Never missed a jumper. Not once. In that tight 2nd game his 2 or 3 turnovers would have been so valuable in the opening 40.

Bongi and the rest are decent, but Marx is one of, if not the best hooker in the world. Imagine how he feels. Every player wants to start regardless of any media narrative.

Gotta start Bongi though it's his 50th this one. Maybe Marx can start his 50th lol.