SA vs Wales (June 2022 series)

[unrated]

Convert the tie-in to a series win. You'd be doing SA a favour.

If we lose the series next weekend against Wales especially with our first choice team, what good do you think can come from this? I am unsure what you insinuated. Do you think the Boks need to relook at their offensive play? Surely the coaches wont be in any danger at all?

 

[unrated]

The way the game is i am surprised he never called it. However with the ball playable it was a good call. I agree with other posters that scrums should just restart play not to get a penalty. As a certain podcast says "Let the boys play".

Scrums are a big part of the game this is not rugby league. If scrums was just to restart play all the players on the field would look like backs.

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

Scrums are a big part of the game this is not rugby league. If scrums was just to restart play all the players on the field would look like backs.

True, scrums should be a contest for the ball to restart play, so there's still value in having a strong scrum without just trying to leach penalties. When was the last time we saw a team win and play the ball from a scrum, rather than try to leach a penalty?

 

[Welsh Exile]

I thought Gardener was pretty consistent with the scrums. Not that I know my arse from my elbow when it comes to scrums but there was at least a couple of times when SA tried to do their thing of keeping the ball at the base for hours so that when the scrum inevitably collapses (which all scrums wil do when you're talking about the immense force we're talking about) they win a penalty but each time Gardner said play the ball, the scrum collapsed and he said play on. Now you may disagree but he was consistent. Go back to the Autumn game in Cardiff and my memory isn't the greatest (can't even remember who the ref was) but the ref was the complete opposite, there were times in that game, like this one, where our scrum seemed on a par but each time they did the same thing the ref always gave SA the pen even. All you can ask for is refs to be consistent and I think in this aspect Gardner was.

 

[Reiser99]

Not that I know my arse from my elbow when it comes to scrums.

Your arse is the part that gets pushed in the scrums, your elbow is the point when you've pushed far enough.

 

[Jimbo]

I thought Gardener was pretty consistent with the scrums. Not that I know my arse from my elbow when it comes to scrums but there was at least a couple of times when SA tried to do their thing of keeping the ball at the base for hours so that when the scrum inevitably collapses (which all scrums wil do when you're talking about the immense force we're talking about) they win a penalty but each time Gardner said play the ball, the scrum collapsed and he said play on. Now you may disagree but he was consistent. Go back to the Autumn game in Cardiff and my memory isn't the greatest (can't even remember who the ref was) but the ref was the complete opposite, there were times in that game, like this one, where our scrum seemed on a par but each time they did the same thing the ref always gave SA the pen even. All you can ask for is refs to be consistent and I think in this aspect Gardner was.

This, I do think too much is needlessly open to refs interpretation when it comes to scrums, a rule like ball must be out and used within a predetermine time period (5 seconds maybe) if neither side have any go forward momentum makes far more sense and improves the game as a spectacle, the fact that many feel SA should be a grieved as that would often be a penalty is the issue.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I'm still not convinced of the direction we're going in though and I would still get rid of Pivac tomorrow for Robertson but fair play to the coaching team after the loss against Italy.

Even when there were good signs to build on when we won the 6N if you had said to me then that we would get our first win in SA with Gareth Thomas, Elias, Lewis, Beard, Rowlands, an ageing Lydiate (our whole pack basically) I would've said you were smoking crack but big credit to the players as well. I know SA were weakened as well but in instances like Wainwright coming on for his debut you're looking at someone like him as a 5th/6th choice TH which is a position we're not exactly strong in against SA who are always strong in the front row.

 

[Eleutherarch]

If we lose the series next weekend against Wales especially with our first choice team, what good do you think can come from this? I am unsure what you insinuated. Do you think the Boks need to relook at their offensive play? Surely the coaches wont be in any danger at all?

Truthfully, I don't know exactly man. I was mildly frustrated when I wrote it (hope you understand).

Sometimes I feel as though the only real catalyst to seeing real progression in the team would be to lose a series that should really have been won comfortably. I think the World Cup win and successful Lions defense have masked some very real vulnerabilities. I haven't looked at any recent performance against top tier opposition where I thought to myself "that is a composed and assured team".

I do believe offensive play needs to be addressed. The strength of the backs is not in dispute but finishing is a big problem. A myriad of opportunities are not converted into points. It's a cliche to say it but there is a problem with ruthlessness. The pack delivers opportunity on a platter with absurd regularity. The returns can and should be better.

I know that Swys de Bruin was consulting for the team a few years back on attack, and resigned citing something vague about differences to approach. So I ask you, am I being overly paranoid or could there really be a bit of a negative mindset bleeding down from the top?

Just for clarity, I am not calling for an overhaul of the way the Boks play. I love it. But I am saying that it must be augmented because very often, it feels as though we play with 8-10 players instead of 15.

 

[ThebigARena]

Biggar should not be captain! There I said it...
People might not agree with me but I don't like backs as captains, I think it takes away from their already taxing role.forwards (*no offense) have a simplified role and this best served as captains! I think it's too much of an added pressure for Dan he's missing simple kicks he normally slots , but make no mistake he is still our best 10 without that badge. Personally I'd give the captaincy to faletau.

 

[Scotty]

Biggar should not be captain! There I said it...
People might not agree with me but I don't like backs as captains, I think it takes away from their already taxing role.forwards (*no offense) have a simplified role and this best served as captains! I think it's too much of an added pressure for Dan he's missing simple kicks he normally slots , but make no mistake he is still our best 10 without that badge. Personally I'd give the captaincy to faletau.

To start with im not Welsh. So talking from a general point of view, i do agree though i prefer a forward as captain. Farrell has always been a leader for England as im sure Bigger has but adding more pressure by making it official often doesnt work and has also resulted in a dip in form many times.

Why Faletau though? I really havnt seen alot from him to make him a good choice as captain. Is he a big leader in the pack or do you not have other options?

 

[Tooting Carmen]

Faletau is as quiet as a church mouse. He may be a very good player but he is nowhere near abrasive and outspoken enough to be captain.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Faletau is as quiet as a church mouse. He may be a very good player but he is nowhere near abrasive and outspoken enough to be captain.

I probably wouldn't make Faletau captain either but you don't have to be outspoken to be a captain. In fact, Faletau is very much like Sam Warburton. Both pretty quiet unassuming guys but lead by example.

If Biggar doesn't start my money would be on Beard being captain. He's had the arm band a few times hasn't he and he calls the line outs so wouldn't be at all surprised if it was him.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

We gained from the Loss, I hate it when coaches say this but we needed to field this team and sometimes they were just overeager.

They can grow from this exposure. The SA A games on the year-end tour will be great to add to this. Our future looks bright.

The rugby was not that bad? Our defence looked very good even for a completely changed side with no consistency. Unfortunately Wales also seems to be very good a tackling.

I think Mallet mentioned that Wales could only make 34 meters in the entire first half. Thats defensive dominance and I cant wait to test it vs The All Blacks.

SA fans should not be negative and its short sighted to criticise them for this. Our attack just could not click under a great Welsh team. I appreciate that this kind of rugby happens every often. Execution can be tidied up and we would not be discussing this.

Despite the ignominy and shame of being the first team to lose to Wales at Home

Despite the shame of not being no1 in the world rankings anymore at least for this coming week, we are ok.

Everything is ok.

Why do you think it was a terrible performance, who did what so badly? Or are you just referring to the gluttony of unforced errors the individuals in the team made?

I'm on the fence. I am all for developing depth. I just don't know why you would refuse to do that piecemeal and then for one game change the entire line-up.

I'm no sports-scientist but I'd assume a big benefit of developing depth piecemeal would be that you get the benefit of new players slotting into an established system and see how they fare alongside your core rather than as a whole new unit in and of themselves. I mean its not like we are either going to play this side or that side in big games. That is where I feel there has been a misstep.

That said, I'd rather this than have no new faces come into the fold. Its just weird is all.

For my money from what gathered:

1
Mchunu looked promising but inexperience showed. TdT also had a mixed bag and while Kitshoff and Nche remain our frontliners its good to know we have options that should only get better with experience.

2
Dweba had a poor showing if you compare to his debut. But between him and Grobbelaar we'll have an able 3rd hooker to back up Marx and Mbonambi. I'll not throw away a player based on 1 poor game especially since his debut was class. The jury is still out though. Poor Marx though. Sheesh, guy would walk into the #2 jersey anywhere else and should be stating for us IMO. Could've had 60 minutes of Marx.

3
Nyakane for me had the beating of the Welsh loose head on his side. The wheeling issues came in our loose-head side. Not much to chat about here.

4
Etzebeth had a rather poor game IMO. It boils down to play consecutive plays where soft penalties 1) relieved the Welsh of pressure inside their 22, 2) gave them a shot at goal to get back to within a score and 3) get their tails up as they were under the pump at that stage but it was them that scored some points in the middle/late part of the 2nd half.

5
Orie was AWOL but this we all probably expected. I'm not even convinced only for the Stormers where I want more impact. Nortje coming on instantaneously set the Welsh line-out to shambles.

6/7/8
Did well enough. PSdT I hardly noticed. No highlights reels but Roos and Coetzee did well enough but not as well as impactful as Wiese last game and Fourie coming on but Fourie would be vs tired legs and Roos I feel should get more chances as his debut was for me on a level at least with that of Wiese and Louw. Louw I see as more of a lng term replacement for PSdT in any event.

9
Hendrikse looked over-coached. It like the heads-up play he is known for was entirely missing. Williams didn't get a chance so no comment there.

10
Pollard was Pollard. At least nothing like Jantjies' horror-how last week.

12/13
This is where I feel vindicated in saying they should not have changed the center pairing. Very much did nothing but crash the ball up or ship the ball on without giving the guys outside anything to work with but having to try to avoid the side-line.

11/14
Can't really judge as they were allowed no space.

15
Looked like Gelant was told to play like Willie which he couldn't really.

Very uninspiring ITO the approach to the game. I had fears around the shear amount of new faces but that fear was tempered by the assumption that this team would be allowed to play a brand of rugby in keeping with what one would expect from them but it seems they were pressed into a mold. Whether that is by the coaching staff or Wales limiting their options I wouldn't know. Probably a bit of both.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Just had a quick look at the rankings. We simply cannot gain any points off of Wales even if we could buy a 15+ winning margin. So the only way ever for us vs Wales is/was down. Assuming we win, we cannot go higher than staying 3rd. Wales could still climb a little but no massive jumps up the rankings. Probably 1, possibly 2 spots.

Any sort of win for NZ will see them climb above us into 2nd (at Ireland's expense) though they cannot catch France. If Ireland got any win 15=/- or 15+ they go tops.

England and Aus's series has no real bearing on anything bar their relation to each other.

I for one am expecting SA and NZ to bounce back which would see the July series translate into 1) France, 2) NZ, 3) SA, 4) Ire. Other likely scenario is 1) Ire, 2) Fra, 3)SA/NZ, or NZ/SA if Wales and Ire both win again. England will have to punish Aus and Wales us for England to overhaul us ATM.

 

[unrated]

Just had a quick look at the rankings. We simply cannot gain any points off of Wales even if we could buy a 15+ winning margin. So the only way ever for us vs Wales is/was down. Assuming we win, we cannot go higher than staying 3rd. Wales could still climb a little but no massive jumps up the rankings. Probably 1, possibly 2 spots.

Any sort of win for NZ will see them climb above us into 2nd (at Ireland's expense) though they cannot catch France. If Ireland got any win 15=/- or 15+ they go tops.

England and Aus's series has no real bearing on anything bar their relation to each other.

I for one am expecting SA and NZ to bounce back which would see the July series translate into 1) France, 2) NZ, 3) SA, 4) Ire. Other likely scenario is 1) Ire, 2) Fra, 3)SA/NZ, or NZ/SA if Wales and Ire both win again. England will have to punish Aus and Wales us for England to overhaul us ATM.

I back us to beat the All Blacks in SA so would expect them to be below us on the rankings, if we have a good two match series against then we will gain a lot of rankings points.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I wonder if SA will continue to announce their team on Tuesday or whether, this week, they'll hold out til Thursday? Think we'll see pretty much the same team as the first test except Pollard will come in if fit.

One advantage we have is that the final test is at sea level whereas usually a SA tour will have the sea level test first then the 2 final tests at altitude so I'm glad about that but whether that will be enough to swing a result in out favour I'm not so sure, SA will be out for blood in this one.

Cuthbert has been ruled out which is a shame for him. Not on long but he looked good when he was on. Watkin will come back on the bench but I imagine it will be the same team minus Dillon Lewis who's arm was in a sling so don't think he'll make it so massive match for Wainwright and will have this O'Connor kid from the scarlets on the bench so big opportunity for him too but you've got to think SA will be massively targeting that area seeing as we're talking 5th/6th choice players there but they'll have a chance move up the pecking order with big performances, though, so fun to see how it plays out.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Also, thinking about it, it was good we lost that first test even though we should've at least held on for a draw as it meant SA rotated for the 2nd. No way they would've done that had they lost the first test.

 

[dullonien]

One more thing from the 2nd test. After being under the pump for most of the second quarter, Wales secured a penalty at the final scrum of the half just inside our own half. Biggar chose to kick the ball out for half time, but why not chance your arm with the final play of the half and kick for a lineout on or around the Boks 22?

Leinster used to be so good at this at their very best, go for a try before half time knowing amy mistake would likely just result in half time anyway. Such negative captaincy to settle for the 3-3 half time score.

I hate to say it, but I'm praying Biggar isn't fit for this weekend. He cost us a victory in the first test with a poor missed kick at goal + deliberate knock on, and did his best to hand SA victory in the second with his general poor play/kicking. Of course, there's been far more wrong with Wales' play than just Biggar, but he's been generally poor for a while inc. with the Lions and we have a better alternative available in Anscombe who doesn't have any negatives from what I can see given his excellent kicking this season.

 

[Welsh Exile]

One more thing from the 2nd test. After being under the pump for most of the second quarter, Wales secured a penalty at the final scrum of the half just inside our own half. Biggar chose to kick the ball out for half time, but why not chance your arm with the final play of the half and kick for a lineout on or around the Boks 22?

Leinster used to be so good at this at their very best, go for a try before half time knowing amy mistake would likely just result in half time anyway. Such negative captaincy to settle for the 3-3 half time score.

I hate to say it, but I'm praying Biggar isn't fit for this weekend. He cost us a victory in the first test with a poor missed kick at goal + deliberate knock on, and did his best to hand SA victory in the second with his general poor play/kicking. Of course, there's been far more wrong with Wales' play than just Biggar, but he's been generally poor for a while inc. with the Lions and we have a better alternative available in Anscombe who doesn't have any negatives from what I can see given his excellent kicking this season.

I'm 100% with you on that pen just before HT. can't believe we didn't go for a 22m line out there and hope for a try/another pen. Showed a lack of ambition that annoyed me at the time.

We saw it in the second half as well. We won that penalty in our own 22 from Etzebeth, kicked into touch just in their half then Etzebeth again If I recall correctly, gave away another pen and we decided to go for the points even though it was a hard kick and we had a good opportunity to go for a 5m line out there, it was a decent time into the second half by that point as well if I'm not mistaken. Obviously it all worked out in the end but would definitely like to see us be a bit braver in those situations.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Any word on when the SA team is being announced?