[RWC2023] England vs Argentina (09/09/2023)

[TopTen2003]

How many sobering defeats do we need? We've had a few this season already

I know but the difference here is that getting smashed by Argentina removes the the one final excuse of "we were building towards 9 September". Same way as in 2007 we limped into the tournament persevering with an approach people weren't convinced by and only a 36-0 chastening by the Boks kicked off total honesty in camp when Barkley told Ashton no one has a ******* clue what they're meant to be doing so we ended up with the likes of Dallaglio, Vickery, Wilkinson and Catt et al rolling up their sleeves and getting the basics nailed down.

Reading todays Sky Sports article suggests Borthwick is not changing for anybody on Saturday. He could regret that massively because I'm not sure an arm wrestle with the Argentinians is the best way to beat them.

I'm not sure how you can go on with this dour approach if we get taken apart on Sat. We've only really played Ireland in second gear who are a good side - Argentina at full tilt could really be a shock to the system.

Lots of ifs and buts though- I'm just talking hypothetically for now if the worst happens result wise.

That silly part of me still hoping "something clicks" and we can get on a roll It's the hope that kills you!

 

[Lé Ddanno]

Nah, he's Irish - Scotland have the props that look like they've never heard of soap or water (looking at you Schoeman)

I'm diagnosing you with a severe case of Andrew Porter / Finlay Bealham blindness

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I'm diagnosing you with a severe case of Andrew Porter / Finlay Bealham blindness

Andrew Porter looks like he wears way too much creed aventus. I'll concede Binley Feelem.

But I went to Twickenham last March and it honestly wasn't until about November that the whiff of Smellis finally left my nostrils. Thank God he didn't play the Heineken Cup QF this season.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Really don't know on this one.

If the Argies had a pack as formidable as previously I'd definitely be calling it their way. But for some reason I think we might just scuff a win which raises more questions than answers.

This is is up for grabs but, crap as we are, I don't really see a scenario where the scoreboard shows a bad beating.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Tbh, if we win this (emphasis on the IF), and have a decent performance, it could be the boost of confidence the team needs, and I'd be more optimistic about the tournament as a whole.

Provided we win, I'd be confident about making a semi, and maybe a final. We have such a favourable draw, it really isn't too much of a gamble.

Despite that, I would also be unsurprised if we went out in the group, which is a weird feeling

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

The way that England started against Fiji and then seemed to change tactics is what worries me.

It's either a terrible coaching choice or some terrible players that can't stick to a plan.

Either way we went from great attacking shapes, making yards in the tackle to kicking away everything and constantly getting run over when Fiji came back with Intrest.


Answers on a post card but I assume SB sent a message on and told the players off. In which case vs Argentina we are doomed as SB must be thick as pig **** to try the same tactics over and over again only to see them fail on every occasion.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Easy to say the weather changed our gameplan but Fiji showed that when the downpour stopped there was still plenty of opportunities to play

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Tbh, if we win this (emphasis on the IF), and have a decent performance, it could be the boost of confidence the team needs, and I'd be more optimistic about the tournament as a whole.

Provided we win, I'd be confident about making a semi, and maybe a final. We have such a favourable draw, it really isn't too much of a gamble.

Despite that, I would also be unsurprised if we went out in the group, which is a weird feeling

Agreed.

The favourable draw might be our best friend here, but might also mask more fundamental failings.

I'd like the RWC to give us an honest picture of where we stand so that the RFU at least has the opportunity to properly recalibrate. Getting carried away on the back of a streaky semi thanks to a soft draw would help no-one.

 

[ShropshireAllBlack]

Agreed.

The favourable draw might be our best friend here, but might also mask more fundamental failings.

I'd like the RWC to give us an honest picture of where we stand so that the RFU at least has the opportunity to properly recalibrate. Getting carried away on the back of a streaky semi thanks to a soft draw would help no-one.

I genuinely fear that limping out at QF/SF stage and soaring to #6 in the rankings will be dressed up as a "success under the circumstances". 3 years of more mediocrity follows before the RFU **** the bed again and make another panic appointment….

 

[TopTen2003]

BBC reporting Curry will start on Sat.

Guessing at 7 or 8 if Lawes has locked down 6? Straight fights between Willis, Earl and Ludlam for the final back row spot?

Personally would prefer a Curry-Willis-Ludlam 6-7-8 (given BVs ban) with Lawes partnering Itoje in second row but gut feel is that Tom Curry plays 8 this weekend.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Agree with all of that other than Lawes in the 2nd row

Great to hear TC is gonna be back, there's very little dog/fight in this side atm (outside of Ludlam) and he'll bring that

Be interesting to see who does go to 8 - Earl got the start vs Fiji but didn't really take the opportunity with both hands (though no-one really staked their claim to a shirt tbf) - he's got by far the most experience at 8 of any of the options

Wouldn't be surprised at either of Lawes/Curry/Earl or Lawes/Willis/Curry
Shame for Ludlam who has been out best forward this season but struggle to see where he fits in when Lawes is our captain so will definitely be starting - would at the very least have him on the bench ahead of whichever of Earl/Willis misses out on the start

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Curry's not played since May and has had a disrupted build up. Even if physically 100% - unlikely - he'll be rusty, so maybe we see him at 90% max. I never wanted to see him at 8 anyway, but it would be daft to play him there in these circumstances.

I expect 6 Lawes, 7 Curry. I would have gone Ludlam at 8 but maybe there's something to be read into Earl starting there against Fiji (and having started the 2 previous games).

 

[AngloScotsHybrid]

England are so lacking in ball carriers in the back row! Not one of them will help England get over the gain line.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Surely curry must start on the bench after so long off. He's not going to be ready to start at 7 nor 6.

But then I get the impression SB will roll the dice as he's desperate.

 

[Becca]

Surely curry must start on the bench after so long off. He's not going to be ready to start at 7 nor 6.

But then I get the impression SB will roll the dice as he's desperate.

I read he's going to start him at 8.

 

[TopTen2003]

England are so lacking in ball carriers in the back row! Not one of them will help England get over the gain line.

Can't argue with that in all fairness, not even Lawes who is a big lad for a 6.

Out of interest, would Martin be a potential carrier option if we played him in back row or again are we once again looking at a tackler rather than a bulldozer?

I have to be honest and say I haven't seen huge amounts of him- the bits I've seen would suggest inconclusive - couple of nice carries but not highlight reel stuff. Certainly has the size for 6/8 though?

 

[Saintjay]

I can't help but think SB will double down on what he's already been doing.

Intersting i really can't think of more than three players at the moment who might make yards in contact. Curry, Ludlum, Genge. That's asking a huge amount of a player back from injury and a prop. Ludlum might not make the 23. Willis, Earl should make yards but have seemed pretty average so far for England. Both definitely capable of more, and tbh it's not like anyone's setting the world on fire at the moment.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I can't help but think SB will double down on what he's already been doing.

Intersting i really can't think of more than three players at the moment who might make yards in contact. Curry, Ludlum, Genge. That's asking a huge amount of a player back from injury and a prop. Ludlum might not make the 23. Willis, Earl should make yards but have seemed pretty average so far for England. Both definitely capable of more, and tbh it's not like anyone's setting the world on fire at the moment.

The issue is good players can look worse and worse if surrounded by poor players. You can have a great carrier but if they are the only carrier, they will be targeted and look poor as a result. I don't know what it is about English players internationally but there is no desire to really drive into the tackle, we seem to view tackles as little more than a means to form a ruck and rucks as little more than a way to start the next phase, there doesn't appear to be any actual desire to do anything except get to a point where we kick. In both tackles and rucks we sort of expect our opposition to play nice, sit back and wait their turn, letting us go through the motions unchallenged, hence why our runners so rarely have support, our rucks are so often under resources and why we so often get driven off our own ball even when it is at the SHs feet ready to be played.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Times saying Smith is likely to come on at FB again.

Also mentioning that he's never started a game at 15. We know this, but it's pretty stark to see it like that - you need to defend as well as attack.

Just about resisting the urge to update the transfers thread with "but does he play 15 for his club" moving from Watson to Smith.

 

[Scotty]

Im actually pretty happy for Curry to come back in, its a risk but he wont half arse it. He will lead the defense and hopfully fill a few holes. He isnt like Billy he wont come back on 50% fitness and 20% effort, if we only get 50 min then ill be happy because he will empty the tank.

Plus even on 50% curry would do much more defensively than Billy would have.