[RWC2019][The Final] England vs. South Africa (02/11/2019)

[Tayga]

Ford did not start against the Aussies and the ABs did not have any meaningful possession to work off . I don't buy the idea that we will dominate the Bokks up front as easily although I do think we will have the edge at the breakdown. The Bokks are going to target Ford defensively at 10 - now I might be proved wrong and it could be that he withstands Allende/Du Toit and Vermeulen coming down his channel.
Don't get me wrong Ford has been SUPERB thus far and has answered his critics but I would rather have a 95% chance of winning by 1 point than an 75% chance of winning by 2 scores.
The beauty of this England team are that there are very few weak links - but Ford will be TARGETTED because in my view there is no change to be had anywhere else - Farrell /tuilagi just seems a better combination for this particular game - but I could be wrong - let's see what Eddie decides .
Horses for courses and flexible tactical thinking !!
I think we will win by 10 but it is going to be a mighty scrap and the Bokks are going to Throw the kitchen sink at us ...

 

[bertiec]

That is true but can Ford really handle Allende running down his channel ? Not convinced . We already know what the saffers are going to do - if we were confident that our pack will get on top of the Bokk pack then I agree this selection conundrum would not be an issue but I reckon the pack battle will be 50/50 and the Saffers will have ball to play with ( unlike the Aussies and the kiwis who were conprehensively shut out of the game.
I know that Ford has looked good and that it would be harsh to "drop" him to a finisher but I think this is the right call for this game as I think du toit and Vermeulen are going to go down the 10 channel - I think Tuilagi at 12 takes care of Allende .

Ford has the best defensive stats of any international 10 at the mo. So who do you want to put there? Farrell maybe carrying an ****le, will get ratty and come the hard man, not up to the same tactical standard.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Ford was able to not only tackle but also strip the ball from a prop running at him.

It's really getting tiresome hearing Ford is a weak link. Put up or shut up. Until someone can actually back this statement up with examples to show that is the case, it is meaningless. Conceding a bit of ground is NOT being a weak link, otherwise the entire bloody NZ pack are as weak as Ford.

 

[Which Tyler]

Ford did not start against the Aussies and the ABs did not have any meaningful possession to work off . I don't buy the idea that we will dominate the Bokks up front as easily although I do think we will have the edge at the breakdown. The Bokks are going to target Ford defensively at 10 - now I might be proved wrong and it could be that he withstands Allende/Du Toit and Vermeulen coming down his channel.
Don't get me wrong Ford has been SUPERB thus far and has answered his critics but I would rather have a 95% chance of winning by 1 point than an 75% chance of winning by 2 scores.
The beauty of this England team are that there are very few weak links - but Ford will be TARGETTED because in my view there is no change to be had anywhere else - Farrell /tuilagi just seems a better combination for this particular game - but I could be wrong - let's see what Eddie decides .
Horses for courses and flexible tactical thinking !!
I think we will win by 10 but it is going to be a mighty scrap and the Bokks are going to Throw the kitchen sink at us ...

Ford has been targetted in every single professional match he's ever played in (242).
Unless you can find another example, it's worked once, and even then there were mitigating circumstances (1).
He is the most successful international FH on defence this year.

Dropping him because we're worried about his defence is simply insanity.
Which is not to say that Eddie won't drop him, but he won't for those reasons.


Ford being a weak link in defence is a myth - pure and simple.
FTR:
Ford being poor behind a beaten pack is a myth - pure and simple.
Ford being a poor place-kicker is a muth - pure an simple.

Anyone wanting to drop Ford using these arguments (absent specific, well researched claims) can simply be discounted quite honestly, we have enough data points now to know that those fears are simply not based on objective reality.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Yay, we've descended to either saying ford is **** or Farrell is ****. Again.


Pick your side and start slinging poo!

 

[ncurd]

Yay, we've descended to either saying ford is **** or Farrell is ****. Again.

Pick your side and start slinging poo!

WOOOOOOOO

 

[Scotty]

Ford did not start against the Aussies and the ABs did not have any meaningful possession to work off . I don't buy the idea that we will dominate the Bokks up front as easily although I do think we will have the edge at the breakdown. The Bokks are going to target Ford defensively at 10 - now I might be proved wrong and it could be that he withstands Allende/Du Toit and Vermeulen coming down his channel.
Don't get me wrong Ford has been SUPERB thus far and has answered his critics but I would rather have a 95% chance of winning by 1 point than an 75% chance of winning by 2 scores.
The beauty of this England team are that there are very few weak links - but Ford will be TARGETTED because in my view there is no change to be had anywhere else - Farrell /tuilagi just seems a better combination for this particular game - but I could be wrong - let's see what Eddie decides .
Horses for courses and flexible tactical thinking !!
I think we will win by 10 but it is going to be a mighty scrap and the Bokks are going to Throw the kitchen sink at us ...

De Allande is a good player and decent carrier but seriously is he that powerful? The Boks are big but them players normally dont offload lile PTSD and Vermeulen. Ford is a good tackler and you can make a couple of easy metres but if that is your tactic to get down the field your screwed.

Kerevi for Aus was an inform powerful carrier it made sense but seriously de allande isnt that great in that respect or not up to manu levels, more chance of manu running through de allande as always someone to help ford and he rarely misses.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Ford has been targetted in every single professional match he's ever played in (242).
Unless you can find another example, it's worked once, and even then there were mitigating circumstances (1).
He is the most successful international FH on defence this year.

Dropping him because we're worried about his defence is simply insanity.
Which is not to say that Eddie won't drop him, but he won't for those reasons.


Ford being a weak link in defence is a myth - pure and simple.
FTR:
Ford being poor behind a beaten pack is a myth - pure and simple.
Ford being a poor place-kicker is a muth - pure an simple.

Anyone wanting to drop Ford using these arguments (absent specific, well researched claims) can simply be discounted quite honestly, we have enough data points now to know that those fears are simply not based on objective reality.

I can bump the number up to three with 2015 and 2017 in Dublin, Ireland got so much good ball through running at him in the start of phase play and bullied him all day. Defence is hardly an issue with the backrow of 2019 though, ye'd get away with Cips, Q Cooper, Biggar or ROG defending. Think EJ got it spot on in both games, there's plenty of things he must see in defences that I don't so I won't try to pretend I know what!

 

[mustardcharlie]

I'd probably go with the same starting line up tbh. bearing in mind that I thought Slade had a poor game v Aus. If Eng try to outmuscle SA. they will lose. Otherwise I cannot see anything other than England. They have the best back row in the world. They've looked quick and sharp. They are not giving away dumb-ass penalties. When opportunities present they are banging them home. OK, they had at least 4 opportunities against NZ which they missed. Still they won convincingly. The forwards inc. replcements, can match them, I think. Get Tuilagi, May. Watson and Daly some decent ball to work with. And I'm a big fan of JJ.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Thinking about how to get my Superbru fantasy team configued I stupidly thought it'd be only SA and England to choose from. Now see NZ and Wales are also available (duh!).

Picking between only SA and English players was an interesting mental exercise though whilst thinking I'd have max 12 apiece. I came up with:
Prop: Sinckler, Kitshoff (Koch)
Hooker: Marx (George)
Lock: Itoje, Snyman
LF: Du Toit, Underhill, Kolisi (Curry)
SH: De Klerk (Youngs)
FH: Pollard (Farrel)
Center: De Allende, Tuilagi (Daly)
OB: Kolbe, May, Watson (Mapimpi)

Now in non-fantasy terms I'd bring in Vermeulen over Kolisi and De Jager just ever so slightly over Snyman and Malherbe in for Sinckler. If I thought they'd get time either of Jantjies or Reinach preferably over De Klerk. Probably gonna load my side with NZ players though now that I've seen 3rd place play off is also on the cards.

 

[Jer1cho]

In 1999 France beat NZ convincingly with a once in a lifetime game. What happened in that final? In 1995 NZ smashed England with the great Lomu display. What happened in that final? It's a very dangerous game in a tournament to fixate on a single performance. Even in 2011 the AB's smashed France in the group stage, and almost sneaked the final. In 2007 we smashed England and the final was as close as a toe on the line. Heck, New Zealand did the exact same thing a few weeks ago after smashing Ireland...

If the players are thinking anything like their fans and Ugo Monye, then I will grow in confidence every day with this final.

***Hopes in Springbok we don't get smashed***

 

[Scotty]

My combined team

Mako (kitshoff)
Marx (george)
Sinks (kock)
Itoje
De jager (Snyman)
Curry
Underhill (PTSD)
Vermeulen
Reinach (Faf)
Ford. (Farrell)
May
De allande.
Manu
Kolbe
Daly (Watson)

Thats my opinion dont b*tch at me because you dont agree

 

[spartan32]

Just going to throw this out there. Jones is a much smarter and more skilled coach than Erasmus. This is clear in how we have seen SA drag themselves through this tournament. The win against Wales was more luck than judgement and considering the players available was shambolic.

England on the other hand have just got better and better. And Jones always seems to have and smart game plan for each side. Erasmus needs a better plan than simply "be physical" and "kick everything". The question is, does he have one? Because Jones will certainly have a plan for him, and he's been part of the SA setup. He knows the mentality, the players etc. Plus he's been at WC Finals in the past. What has Erasmus got to draw on?

as far as coaching goes England are well in the lead. Let's just hope the lads can keep up.

 

[Alex Anghel]

I don't like either team (to put it delicately), but I will cheer for England, just like I did 28 years ago. However, I fear that the Boks may pull off a highly pragmatic game and win on a 3 point penalty: after all, the other two finals they won at WC were tryless triumphs.

Anyway, if there's any sports justice and purely judging by what we have seen so far in this tournament, I believe that England should win it.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I worry if we get dragged into an arm wrestle - I rate our pack to match the physicality of the Boks pack, however I don't rate our discipline. It was very good vs New Zealand but traditionally/lately has been real poor - could see SA chipping away 3pts by 3pts until it's a real mountain to climb if we're not careful.

 

[Alex Anghel]

I worry if we get dragged into an arm wrestle - .

This is exactly what the Boks will be trying to achieve. If you don't get ahead on the scoreboard and have a try or so, there might be shades of 1995 and 2007...

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Just going to throw this out there. Jones is a much smarter and more skilled coach than Erasmus. This is clear in how we have seen SA drag themselves through this tournament. The win against Wales was more luck than judgement and considering the players available was shambolic.

England on the other hand have just got better and better. And Jones always seems to have and smart game plan for each side. Erasmus needs a better plan than simply "be physical" and "kick everything". The question is, does he have one? Because Jones will certainly have a plan for him, and he's been part of the SA setup. He knows the mentality, the players etc. Plus he's been at WC Finals in the past. What has Erasmus got to draw on?

as far as coaching goes England are well in the lead. Let's just hope the lads can keep up.

Yeah, that's a load of rubbish. Erasmus has had what? 18 months to turn SA from a team capable of losing to Italy and losing by record margins to NZ and Ireland to world cup finalists. SA were far worse at the end of 2017 than England were in 2015.

Just prior to that he turned Munster from an absolute shambles to a team reaching Heineken cup semis instantly. The guy is as clever as they come.

 

[TRF_heineken]

De Allande is a good player and decent carrier but seriously is he that powerful? The Boks are big but them players normally dont offload lile PTSD and Vermeulen. Ford is a good tackler and you can make a couple of easy metres but if that is your tactic to get down the field your screwed.

Kerevi for Aus was an inform powerful carrier it made sense but seriously de allande isnt that great in that respect or not up to manu levels, more chance of manu running through de allande as always someone to help ford and he rarely misses.

Well De Allende targeted Biggar with great effect and gained a lot of meters. And De Allende has this knack of not going to ground easily and even at times able to break a tackle. He did this against Wales and Japan. He has been doing this in a couple of tests in the past too. A couple of years ago he did it against NZ when he was up against Crotty IIRC.

I think Pollard and De Allende would target this channel, but also Farrell. Farrell seems to miss more tackles than Ford. And we have some unfinished business with Mr. Farrell.

but Snyman, Kitshoff, Marx and Kolisi are great at offloading. Oh and Lood.

 

[Hydraulxx]

Been waiting for Farrell to pull a Farrell this whole WC, will he finally show us his trademark tackle?

 

[Mr Ruggleby]

The descent into Ford and Farrell chat after the weekend is insane. However the completely blinkered views of some supporters of either camp is the main reason this debate rages on. In my attempt to put this to bed:

1. Ford has been outstanding in this World Cup. With Farrell carrying a knock it would be absolute madness to entrust him to deliver on his own when Ford has been so good as the offensive general and tactical kicker to date.
2. Ford has not lost any games or even conceded any significant line breaks in this tournament, defensively I would say he has been pretty solid and has even won a turnover or two.
3. His performances of late clearly show that the following criticisms are outdated: He is a bad goal kicker, he capitulates under pressure, he is a bad tackler.

I genuinely cannot see how the above can really be disputed. However there are a couple of important caveats:

1. Eddie clearly thinks that Ford can be targeted defensively. He both verbally confirmed this and it showed it by benching him vs Australia. This doesn't make it gospel, but you'd think the current coach of the national team would have a decent idea of a players strengths and weaknesses. Secondly, I have witnessed with my eyes, smaller players like Ford having a tough day at the office due to the sheer size and weight difference between them and opposition players. I'm not saying this costs games, but it is clearly not a strength of his and that's ok. Doesn't mean he should be dropped, but to claim it is not a potential weakness is to damage your credibility as rugby pundit.
2. Back dating opinions based on current form is a risky business. Ford has not always been as consistent off the tee as he is now. He has not been consistently great behind weak packs until this year with Leicester. Farrell used to play deeper than the Mariana Trench and be literally incapable of sparking a back line. Players change, but that doesn't mean it eradicates and invalidates every previous criticism against them.

Ford is currently playing fantastically, the partnership with Farrell is firing and produced the best England performance in recent memory when it really counted. Anyone calling on Ford to be dropped is, in my opinion, talking nonsense. Even if Farrell wasn't injured, Ford has got the team humming and should be one of the first few names on the team sheet. But countering (IMO incorrect) arguments of dropping him with claims that any possible criticism is a myth just detracts from the important point - he is currently our best option at 10 to win a World Cup - flaws and all.