RWC: Argentina - England (10-09-2011, 20:30)

[Sixesandsevens]

I personally think we get Lawes to tackle him, and then bring Owen Farrell or someone else over...

What a joke. Some people are so over critical. One poor performance with the boot and calling for changes. Whatever. And Wilkinson was in form when he got picked at 10 over Geraghty, Geraghty played poorly I seem to remember Wilkinson being Englands best player that Autumn. (Along with Moody)

 

[Teh Mite]

What a joke. Some people are so over critical. One poor performance with the boot and calling for changes. Whatever. And Wilkinson was in form when he got picked at 10 over Geraghty, Geraghty played poorly I seem to remember Wilkinson being Englands best player that Autumn. (Along with Moody)

Geraghty was the countries form 10 going into the autumn series and was shoehorned into 12 to accommodate Wilkinson, who played so deep he needed inflatable armbands at times. Geraghty was so badly ruined by the experience he barely even played for his club again, let alone country.

But don't let those fact get in the way of making a song and dance about Jonny "Golden ********" Wilkinson.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

yeap. can I also point out that pretty much any game when we've played well in the last year has been with flood at 10. The australia game, the earlier games in the six nations etc. when flood is off form we can be fairly awful, but when he is on it we play our best possible rugby. Wilkinson(apart from yesterday ) tends to keep things somewhere in between. In my opinion, given enough gametime, Flood is worth the risk

 

[gingergenius]

Well, since we've got two games against Georgia and Romania, might now not be the time to work out some combinations?

Priorities - back row and midfield.

Back Row - Moody needs to come back and have some game time. But he will be picked at 7 which will be a mistake. Croft needs to play his way into form. Wood needs to play. Haskell needs to play 8 more. So, for Georgia, how about Croft-Wood-Haskell.

Midfield - time to try Wilko - Flood - Tuilagi OR, if Tindall & Manu are the centre pairing everyone was talking about after an average display vs Ireland, then Flood is the man to get them going better and Flood can bloody well play his way into some form in the 10 shirt.

It's all very well having Wilkinson to come off the bench and drop a few goals to win a semi with, but starting him for those reasons is ****ing negative.

 

[Sixesandsevens]

yeap. can I also point out that pretty much any game when we've played well in the last year has been with flood at 10. The australia game, the earlier games in the six nations etc. when flood is off form we can be fairly awful, but when he is on it we play our best possible rugby. Wilkinson(apart from yesterday ) tends to keep things somewhere in between. In my opinion, given enough gametime, Flood is worth the risk

And of course that had nothing to do with the fact Flood had Youngs controlling the game inside him. With Care/Wiggles Flood looks crap, with Grindall Flood looks crap. We hardly ever see Wilko with Youngs, and when we do he looks bloody good. Go figure. They are both very good 10s but the key isnt really who plays there its that an on form youngs is inside which makes the difference.

 

[Teh Mite]

A Scrum half who only ever snipes and a 10 who only ever kicks. There's an exciting combination. A perfect way to use gamebreakers such as Foden.

 

[Sixesandsevens]

Yup just snipes, thats right, doesnt significantly raise the tempo of the game at all.......or manage to get the forwards to generate quick ball. All hail the admin and his mighty opinion.

 

[Teh Mite]

Yup just snipes, thats right, doesnt significantly raise the tempo of the game at all.......or manage to get the forwards to generate quick ball. All hail the admin and his mighty opinion.

First off, I'm not an admin. I had enough of putting up with smug little gobshites to be interested in that role a long time ago.
Second of all, I know what I'm talking about. Wilkinson kicks the ball7 times out of 10. Youngs ups the tempo because he likes to tap-and-go himself. He doesn't marshall his pack at all - The late improvement was down to Hartley and Stevens being introduced.
Thirdly, if you're descending into personal comments already you have a really shitty argument for promoting Golden ********.

 

[captainpotwash]

Should have brought Fluety along rather than Tindall - a much more dynamic player who can actually fire a long pass. As for Youngs he must start all the "big" games. Stevens, Hartley, Wilkinson etc. are perfect off the bench for either sealing the deal or for securing a gritty win. Shaw should be put on a plane home.

 

[IluvRugby]

If we play against NZ(or who ever it is) in the quarters the way we played against Argentina I cant see us coming close to the semis.

 

[Sixesandsevens]

First off, I'm not an admin. I had enough of putting up with smug little gobshites to be interested in that role a long time ago.
Second of all, I know what I'm talking about. Wilkinson kicks the ball7 times out of 10. Youngs ups the tempo because he likes to tap-and-go himself. He doesn't marshall his pack at all - The late improvement was down to Hartley and Stevens being introduced.
Thirdly, if you're descending into personal comments already you have a really shitty argument for promoting Golden ********.

Wilkinson passed or ran far more than he kicked yesterday. Im sorry but I cant agree with you about Youngs, he marshalls the pack incredibly well and picks out thebest runners and puts them in the better holes for generating quick ball better than anyone else at the moment. That wasnt meant as a personal comment, which is ironic as most of the time when you post you seem to be putting other peoples opinions down, and not even taking on board peoples valid points. I dont know what your problem with Wilkinson is, to be honest with you I think the man deserves more respect, I dont know you, you may have been a damn good player, but you cant dream of achieving the things he has and will through sheer grit and determination.

 

[Rhyer]

A Scrum half who only ever snipes and a 10 who only ever kicks. There's an exciting combination. A perfect way to use gamebreakers such as Foden.

I would tend to disagree with that statement. Foden isn't a gamebreaker and England have trouble across the backline not just in 9 and 10. What has Chris Ashton done except for four tries against Italy which were set up for him? The main problem lies in the midfield where there is ZERO creativity.

 

[Gavin]

I would tend to disagree with that statement. Foden isn't a gamebreaker and England have trouble across the backline not just in 9 and 10. What has Chris Ashton done except for four tries against Italy which were set up for him? The main problem lies in the midfield where there is ZERO creativity.

Foden is a gamebreaker, probably one of the few in the Northern Hemisphere.

 

[captainpotwash]

Foden is a gamebreaker, probably one of the few in the Northern Hemisphere.

Tend to agree here, however with the England set up as it stands it would appear that they haven't worked out how to utilise him in any sort of beneficial way . . still early days though. However the inclusion of Cueto was a mistake would have much preferred to see Monye or even Varndell on the plane instead - we need some REAL pace in the back 3 if we are to challenge any top 5 team

 

[gingergenius]

I would tend to disagree with that statement. Foden isn't a gamebreaker and England have trouble across the backline not just in 9 and 10. What has Chris Ashton done except for four tries against Italy which were set up for him? The main problem lies in the midfield where there is ZERO creativity.

The problem, ultimately, lies with coaching, or at the very least how the coaches get their points across to players.

Let's look at that backline's attacking qualities:

Foden - wonderful counterattacker, quick feet, eye for a gap
Ashton - pace, great finisher, great support runner, picks angles
Armitage - pace, good footballer, good broken field runner
Tuilagi - power, a bit of pace, good hands, runs some nice lines.

As far as outside backs go, that's not exactly a poor hand of cards.

So do the problems lie at 9-10-12?

Well, Wigglesworth isn't the most exciting of 9s, but the All Blacks don't suffer with Cowan, do they? Having a Youngs or a Care there injects pace into the game, but you shouldn't be relying on a scrum half to get the backs going.

Everything points to the midfield. And all the time with England, the midfield is cluttered. It's cluttered with pods of forwards who take the ball static and go to ground easily. With Wilkinson there, it's got a 10 who likes to sit deep, and with Tindall at 12, it's not got any kind of footballer standing outside him either.

Surely they can watch teams who do things well, and notice that, for example, All Black forwards do their carrying close to the breakdown. Either that or there's a big ****er like Read running hard and making yards in the midfield. Otherwise, it's off to Carter and the backs - and they have classy centres like Nonu who posess that oh so basic ability to straighten the line and fix the defence.

With England, half the time we don't have quick ball, which is the job of the back row. And I've already highlighted the inability of England coaches to pick proper opensides at 7 to help what has been a problem for at least 4 years.

When we do have quick ball, we're not sensible. Surely, a scrum half and fly half can tell when they have quick ball. Surely, this tells them not to kick it away. Surely, this tells them not to let it near a forward. Surely, they can then tell the likes of Thompson, Lawes, Easter etc. to get the **** out of the way and make sure they're in position to secure quick ball at the next breakdown.

What happens at the moment is that the 10 receives the ball half the time from a forward and not from the 9. Shocking. And then, since England haven't picked a footballer at 12 for ages, we don't even have anyone to straighten or create anything after all the time faffing about getting the ball from the ruck to the midfield. Which means our outside backs, who do have attacking talent, are nearly always receiving **** ball.

 

[captainpotwash]

So do the problems lie at 9-10-12?

Well, Wigglesworth isn't the most exciting of 9s, but the All Blacks don't suffer with Cowan, do they? Having a Youngs or a Care there injects pace into the game, but you shouldn't be relying on a scrum half to get the backs going..

The ABs don't have to worry about having an average scrum half in Cowan because they have Carter and a supreme mid field (Nonu, Smith,SBW etc.); and McCaw + Kaino to provide quality ball anyway. We can't compare ourselfs to the ABs at the moment.

I must disagree with your statement of not relying on the scrum half to get the backs going - every sucessfull team and RWC winning team have had brilliant scrum halves - AB - Kelleher, Australia - Gregan and now Genia - England 2003 - dawson, South Africa 2007 - Du Preez without whom winning the WRC would have been impossible. It is ALL about the scrum half they provide the vital link, help in deciding the play and dictating movement almost as much as a 1st 5/8.

However, Englands problems at the moment essentially lie in the mid field and I have to agree in the back row - simply not good enough at the moment.

 

[JW.]

Agree with whats posted above by gingergenieus very good assessment!

 

[Ostrayian]

What were peoples thoughts of Michael Lipman? He did a great job as an openside for the melbourne rebels. Was in the Top 5 of openside flankers in the super comp imo.

 

[JW.]

I liked him when he made his England debute a couple of years ago just seems to have dropped of the radar?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

By dropped off the radar you mean "banned for being involved in a drugs scandal"