Rugby Championship: South Africa - New Zealand (06/10/2012)

[Sam Owen]

This!

While we lost by a very big margin on Saturday, there were glimpses in that game and the game in dunedin where we showed how to beat the All Blacks, but execution, goal kicking and inexperience was the downfall.

The preparation was correct, and the finishing was a bit Meh... but, I think while our record under HM isn't looking very rosy at the moment, he has made massive strides. Building an entirely new team almost from scratch is one thing, but to be competitive against number 1 and 2 in the world, is amazing. New Zealand is a cut above the rest at the moment, no denying that. but a lot can happen in very quick time.

Yeah no doubt, the 'Boks will be back, everyone knows that and they will improve. If you watch that game again, look for how the 'Boks started. The intensity, tempo, hiss and roar was excellent. Better than their start in Dunedin. I dont want to point at fitness 'cos the 'Boks are seasoned athletes, they train harder than Rocky Balboa but its like that tempo and intensity they had at the start just dropped and faded. Its something Meyer might want to look at because when he looks at that game, he'll know the start was great from the 'Boks but then where did it all go wrong?...did the super active start drain the players?...I dont know. I think if the 'Boks maintained their momentum at the start they would've won.

I wouldnt have gone to Goosen for the first penalty shot at goal. You wont goals, get Morne Steyn (worlds best). I would've kicked for a lineout (Bok strength) and gone for a maul (Bok strength). Wasnt Goosen brought in for his running and setting up?...like I said before, I felt Morne was more suited for this game. Yes you could argue he cost the Boks the game in Dunedin but apparently Dunedins stadium is hell for goal kickers. I dont think Ive seen Goosen play but Im sure hes good so JDV let the boy play his game.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Yeah no doubt, the 'Boks will be back, everyone knows that and they will improve. If you watch that game again, look for how the 'Boks started. The intensity, tempo, hiss and roar was excellent. Better than their start in Dunedin. I dont want to point at fitness 'cos the 'Boks are seasoned athletes, they train harder than Rocky Balboa but its like that tempo and intensity they had at the start just dropped and faded. Its something Meyer might want to look at because when he looks at that game, he'll know the start was great from the 'Boks but then where did it all go wrong?...did the super active start drain the players?...I dont know. I think if the 'Boks maintained their momentum at the start they would've won.

I wouldnt have gone to Goosen for the first penalty shot at goal. You wont goals, get Morne Steyn (worlds best). I would've kicked for a lineout (Bok strength) and gone for a maul (Bok strength). Wasnt Goosen brought in for his running and setting up?...like I said before, I felt Morne was more suited for this game. Yes you could argue he cost the Boks the game in Dunedin but apparently Dunedins stadium is hell for goal kickers. I dont think Ive seen Goosen play but Im sure hes good so JDV let the boy play his game.

I agree with you that there was a marked slumped in intensity. It can only be one of a few things. Either fitness is not up to scratch and in line with what we look to do or we lost concentration and the mental toughness isn't there or the ABs simply overcame the intensity by the Boks meaning it didn't show any more or some combination of the three. My opinion is that it's a drop in team cohesiveness and concentration more than the other 2 though I assume they also came into play.

Goosen is also a great goal kicker or at least he has maintained high percentages throughout junior competitions and SR prior to his struggling at test level. I wonder whether the problem doesn't stop at the kicking coach. It could be that I have personal issues with Koen though LOL.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I wonder whether the problem doesn't stop at the kicking coach. It could be that I have personal issues with Koen though LOL.

This.

You are not the only one. I never rated him as a good kicker, even when he played. If they wanted a former Bok fly half as the Kicking Coach then Surely there should only be 3 names in that draw: Naas Botha, Joel Stransky and Jannie De Beer.

And for the life of me, I would never understand why there has to be a goal kicking coach at test level. Each fly half has their own kicking coach who they work with throughout the year, the Bulls have Vlok Cilliers who taught Morne Steyn how to kick. Why f*** it all up by getting an average coach like Louis Koen to get Morne to change the way he kicks, when his success rate was something most kickers dreamed of...

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

This.

You are not the only one. I never rated him as a good kicker, even when he played. If they wanted a former Bok fly half as the Kicking Coach then Surely there should only be 3 names in that draw: Naas Botha, Joel Stransky and Jannie De Beer.

And for the life of me, I would never understand why there has to be a goal kicking coach at test level. Each fly half has their own kicking coach who they work with throughout the year, the Bulls have Vlok Cilliers who taught Morne Steyn how to kick. Why f*** it all up by getting an average coach like Louis Koen to get Morne to change the way he kicks, when his success rate was something most kickers dreamed of...

The bliksem owes you money as well? LOL.

Only other pro rugby player I've ever done work for I didn't recognize at first. I met him after numerous calls etc under the name Antonio de Oliviera and we had our first meeting and I said that he looked very familiar. He asked whether I followed rugby at all and it clicked and I asked him if he were Anton Olivier. LOL, apparently the poor bloke got name changed at the Bulls so that the Afrikaners could identify with him.

 

[TRF_heineken]

The bliksem owes you money as well? LOL.

Only other pro rugby player I've ever done work for I didn't recognize at first. I met him after numerous calls etc under the name Antonio de Oliviera and we had our first meeting and I said that he looked very familiar. He asked whether I followed rugby at all and it clicked and I asked him if he were Anton Olivier. LOL, apparently the poor bloke got name changed at the Bulls so that the Afrikaners could identify with him.

Yeah he owes me transport costs and the price i paid for my Soccer City ticket... and my Monthly Subscribtion to DSTV for the last 2 months as I paid to see how Kak our kickers are under his so-called guidance...

I think that total would be fair, don't you?

 

[nickdnz]

Percy Montgomery was kicking coach in 2009 wasn't he? Surely he should be begged to be kicking coach, as 2009 SA's goal kickers were probably their best weapon.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Yeah he owes me transport costs and the price i paid for my Soccer City ticket... and my Monthly Subscribtion to DSTV for the last 2 months as I paid to see how Kak our kickers are under his so-called guidance...

I think that total would be fair, don't you?

I would add remuneration for pain and suffering then I think it should square up.

Percy Montgomery was kicking coach in 2009 wasn't he? Surely he should be begged to be kicking coach, as 2009 SA's goal kickers were probably their best weapon.

Yip it was Percy and I would love to see him called up again. For the most part HM has stuck to Bulls coaches he knows with varying degrees of success. The thing is he brought in Koen who wasn't at the bulls while Percy was doing sterling work and already had a working relationship with the Bokke and Steyn. Bringing in Pieter de Villiers (not the one with the big mouth but with the big shoulders) as scrum coach was a masterstroke though IMO. If he can sort Coenie out we'll have a dangerous scrum.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I would add remuneration for pain and suffering then I think it should square up.

Geez, if I add that, then his salary for the next 10 years would come to me... Not a bad Idea

Yip it was Percy and I would love to see him called up again. For the most part HM has stuck to Bulls coaches he knows with varying degrees of success. The thing is he brought in Koen who wasn't at the bulls while Percy was doing sterling work and already had a working relationship with the Bokke and Steyn. Bringing in Pieter de Villiers (not the one with the big mouth but with the big shoulders) as scrum coach was a masterstroke though IMO. If he can sort Coenie out we'll have a dangerous scrum.

LOL, oh the biggest irony of it all is that HM took all those Bulls Staff members, but left one of the most important ones in VLok Cilliers. Percy would be a great option, but isn't he contracted to the Stormers?

 

[Shaggy]

This!

While we lost by a very big margin on Saturday, there were glimpses in that game and the game in dunedin where we showed how to beat the All Blacks, but execution, goal kicking and inexperience was the downfall.

The preparation was correct, and the finishing was a bit Meh... but, I think while our record under HM isn't looking very rosy at the moment, he has made massive strides. Building an entirely new team almost from scratch is one thing, but to be competitive against number 1 and 2 in the world, is amazing. New Zealand is a cut above the rest at the moment, no denying that. but a lot can happen in very quick time.

Exactly!... some of those games, like the one you mentioned, could have easily gone the other way ... if you consider where we are in the four year RWC cycle, and how many new players we are seeing/new coaches etc ... the ABs had some changes, but they were probably the least affected by retirements and injuries. They currently have the experienced players, and the confidence to close out the tight matches, but those players can't continue playing forever.

Sure, there were some convincing wins, but, for the most part, the games were tight tussles ... I sometimes think that the generalRugby public has the memory of a goldfish, looking at only the last match played, and not looking at the whole picture of what a side has achieved, and their potential.

 

[Zapphod]

You know what seems odd to me, the only thing people seem to have taken out of the South African tests against the All Blacks is that South Africa is losing because its kickers are aren't on form.

Here is a thought South Africa is losing because it has become one dimensional instead of having a balanced attack with scores being built through tries, penalties and drop kicks it has an "all we need is better kickers" mentality.

If you want to win games stop playing the ref and start playing attacking rugby, this applies to Australia as well it is sad to see two great teams so devoid of ideas that they are relegated to coming up with game plans to stop the All Blacks rather than producing plans to beat them.

 

[TRF_heineken]

You know what seems odd to me, the only thing people seem to have taken out of the South African tests against the All Blacks is that South Africa is losing because its kickers are aren't on form.

Here is a thought South Africa is losing because it has become one dimensional instead of having a balanced attack with scores being built through tries, penalties and drop kicks it has an "all we need is better kickers" mentality.

If you want to win games stop playing the ref and start playing attacking rugby, this applies to Australia as well it is sad to see two great teams so devoid of ideas that they are relegated to coming up with game plans to stop the All Blacks rather than producing plans to beat them.

Lol, clearly you only watched the first couple of RC tests...

South Africa has made a lot of scoring opportunities vs The All Blacks in Dunedin and Soweto, and we scored 4 tries vs Australia at Loftus.

Here's a thought for you, South Africa is the only other team that scored 4 tries. South Africa and New Zealand were also the only 2 teams to score more than 10 tries, with New Zealand scoring 18 and SA scoring 12.

Conversions and Penalties on the other hand plays a major part in winning a test, and if you miss an average of 10 points per game, then you're pretty much f****d!

 

[Zapphod]

I think you missed the first line of my post.
This bit in fact...
"the only thing people seem to have taken out of the South African tests against the All Blacks"

 

[TRF_heineken]

I think you missed the first line of my post.
This bit in fact...
"the only thing people seem to have taken out of the South African tests against the All Blacks"

Nope I took it into consideration... In Dunedin we scored 1 try and NZ scored 2. But we missed 16 points with kicks... We also botched 3 chances to score tries, one of them right in the corner, when Kirchner couldn't control the ball.

 

[Icemn]

i hope NZ realizes that a lot of their senior players are not going to be around in +- 4 years time... they need t obring the youngsters in now already... otherwise their will be a huge cap as for SA, they actaully in a good position wiht all their youngsters... they jsut need to built some momentum when the AB will need to take a dip and break momentum if those senior players retire...

 

[Darwin]

i hope NZ realizes that a lot of their senior players are not going to be around in +- 4 years time... they need t obring the youngsters in now already... otherwise their will be a huge cap as for SA, they actaully in a good position wiht all their youngsters... they jsut need to built some momentum when the AB will need to take a dip and break momentum if those senior players retire...

I don't really think this is an issue at all for New Zealand. Just look at the new players they have already brought in this year - Faumuina, Retallick, Romano, Cane, A Smith, Barrett, Savea. That means 1/4 of the squad are new this season, and the likes of Retallick, Smith, and Savea have already made a big impact! I would expect we will see the likes of Tameifuna, Perenara, and Kerr-Barlow introduced sooner rather than later too.

There are several areas of concern, but I think that is the case with all teams. Hooker is the main area where we need some young blood (Elliot or Coles are the front runners), while I would like to see a young LH prop in the squad sometime over the next year. The midfield is the other main area where we need some youth, so hopefully the likes of Francis Saili, Jason Emery continue to develop. There is no doubt the AB's will be affected when the likes of McCaw, Carter, Woodcock, Hore etc retire (particularly in terms of leadership). However by the time that happens the likes of Read, Whitelock, Owen Franks, and Dagg should all be 50+ test veterans, and already are world class players, therefore there should (hopefully) be a pretty smooth transition to the post McCaw/Carter era (as the transition to the post Thorn/Kaino/Muiliana era was)...

 

[Gena_ZA]

NZ are producing more rugby talent that Greece are producing debt - will will not be an issue

 

[William18]

Lol, clearly you only watched the first couple of RC tests...

South Africa has made a lot of scoring opportunities vs The All Blacks in Dunedin and Soweto, and we scored 4 tries vs Australia at Loftus.

Here's a thought for you, South Africa is the only other team that scored 4 tries. South Africa and New Zealand were also the only 2 teams to score more than 10 tries, with New Zealand scoring 18 and SA scoring 12.

Conversions and Penalties on the other hand plays a major part in winning a test, and if you miss an average of 10 points per game, then you're pretty much f****d!

I think there are massive problems with your style of play. Now I'm not going to say you need to play more attacking rugby. That is how we play in New Zealand and it works well for us. You guys prefer to kick all day. Neither style is better or worse than any other as long as it is well executed. The problem is that you guys are stuck in your ways. Their are times when you shouldn't kick but it seems so ingrained that you do it anyway. Watch the last 20 minutes of either test against us. You guys are behind but there are plenty of terrible kicks when you should actually run the ball. Or when Dagg was yellow carded, you still carted the ball up in the forwards and kicked. Fine when you are winning but not when you need quick tries against 14 players.

Your kicking game is easy to defend against because it is predictable. Our wingers and fullback know where they have to be for the kick and know it is inevitably coming. For instance, in Dunedin I think it was you continually bombed Jane when he is one of the best under the high ball in world rugby. Savea went through the game barely challenged. Not only were the tactics terrible but they were poorly executed. Carter is the best first five in the world because he takes the ball to the line. Someone like Steyn was too predictable he would kick or pass. On the weekend your first fives collectively ran twice while Carter ran six times. South Africa are too predictable to beat us regularly right now. I think Australia have a better chance because of the style they play which is much harder to figure out. Carter kicked a drop goal on the weekend when for years that had no place in our rugby. There was plenty of kicking for territory too at the end. You have to mix up your style to be effective.

 

[William18]

I don't really think this is an issue at all for New Zealand. Just look at the new players they have already brought in this year - Faumuina, Retallick, Romano, Cane, A Smith, Barrett, Savea. That means 1/4 of the squad are new this season, and the likes of Retallick, Smith, and Savea have already made a big impact! I would expect we will see the likes of Tameifuna, Perenara, and Kerr-Barlow introduced sooner rather than later too.

There are several areas of concern, but I think that is the case with all teams. Hooker is the main area where we need some young blood (Elliot or Coles are the front runners), while I would like to see a young LH prop in the squad sometime over the next year. The midfield is the other main area where we need some youth, so hopefully the likes of Francis Saili, Jason Emery continue to develop. There is no doubt the AB's will be affected when the likes of McCaw, Carter, Woodcock, Hore etc retire (particularly in terms of leadership). However by the time that happens the likes of Read, Whitelock, Owen Franks, and Dagg should all be 50+ test veterans, and already are world class players, therefore there should (hopefully) be a pretty smooth transition to the post McCaw/Carter era (as the transition to the post Thorn/Kaino/Muiliana era was)...

Yeah, hooker is the real area of concern right now. Second-five to a lesser extent as well. It is easier to convert another outside back to second five though then develop a good hooker. I think we have plenty of young talent. The transitions in the past have been pretty good. Generally, we have clear replacements for most positions. I think the only thing that would screw us over would be if say McCaw, Carter, Nonu and Smith all retired in the same season. Hopefully it is a slow, gradual transition rather than something that happens all at once. Generally an era of the All Blacks seems to merge into the next one. We just need to keep replacing one player at a time. Keep a bit of youth and a bit of experience.

It's also worth remembering that in 2015 the stars of the All Blacks could very well be those who were not quite there in 2011. In 2007 Kaino was considered a bit of a disappointment and in 2011 he was immense. Nonu and Weepu missed out in 2007 also. I predict it will be players like Freuan, Kahui, Vito, Messam, Ben Smith who will really shine in four years time. Most of the young guys now with the exception of the exceptional ones (i.e. Ardie Savea) may have to wait until 2019.

 

[Keithmurdoch]

I think its impossible to look four years into the future for depth in certain positions - first five was our biggest concern only last year (hot n cold beaver notwithstanding) and now its a position of great optimism. Ali Williams was widely accepted as our best airial lock last year, now there will be marches if he's selected for europe - you can't predict anything four years in advance except the fact that new guys will rise up that you cant see right now.

 

[tomchang01]

the logo all is nice.